Sam: 00:03

This is the No Bell podcast where we talk about how to optimize your technology, life, and mind. We're joined by special operations veterans, entrepreneurs, investors, and others who have overcome difficulty to make it to the top of their craft by staying in the fight. I'm Sam Alaimo. Welcome to the No Bell podcast. I have Jason Gus Gusic of Westside Barbell and founder of Conjugate Tactical.

Sam: 00:31

Well welcome.

Jason: 00:32

Hey, man. Thanks for having me.

Sam: 00:33

Yeah. Let's start where we always do. Where did you grow up?

Jason: 00:36

So I grew up in Northwest Indiana where just probably like everybody who joined the military swore I was never coming back and got out and came right back. But I grew up in a small town called Lake Station or East Gary, if you know, try not to fancy it up too much, and then ended up moving about 20 minutes away from where I grew up to a little town called Chesterton, and that's where I've been since o seven, o eight, maybe.

Sam: 00:58

What what was your earliest memory of wanting to join the Marine Corps?

Jason: 01:01

Man, I I really don't know. On that one, it's like I think everyone when you're a kid is, like, you know, you watch at least my age group, you know, you watch, like, Red Dawn and GI Joe cartoons and go to the woods and and do all that kinda goofy stuff. But I think I got serious, like, actually entertaining joining the military probably by the end of my my 10th 10th grade year in high school. And 11th grade, it was pretty much a done deal. I was just waiting to turn 18.

Jason: 01:26

So somewhere around that, like, 16, 17 year old age was like, yeah. This this is the route I'm gonna take. And that, you know, it predates 911. It was just more of, like, I need to get the hell out of here because nothing good comes from this area, it seems like.

Sam: 01:39

Okay. I mean, you're in kind of a a hardcore professional right now. You're a marine corps. I wonder when you were a kid, were you a hoodlum, or were you a pretty straight laced?

Jason: 01:48

Like, there's some some dudes doing much worse stuff than me. But for a white boy that grew up in the suburbs of Indiana, like, we're kind of a pain in the ass, like a, you know, classic story. Like, you know, just like I don't know, man. We smoke a little bit of weed, and, you know, some of the guys who had cool older brothers would buy us some beers, but nothing too nothing too drastic or or dark. You know?

Jason: 02:09

Like, knocked over some people's garbage cans and broke some window. Just normal high school kids stuff, but nothing nothing dark like you hear on some, you know, some people's experience and stuff.

Sam: 02:20

So you said pre 9/11. When did you actually get into the marine corps?

Jason: 02:23

I was on that trajectory. I knew that's where I wanted to go and, like, the dorky kid just hanging out at the recruiter's office forever, but I ended up you know, my parents wouldn't sign for me being young. You know, dad was a Vietnam vet or still is a Vietnam vet. If you're going, we'll support you, but we're not gonna do the the parental signature, whatever that was. I can't remember what that was called.

Jason: 02:41

But I legitimately signed up on my 18th birthday, July 5, 2001. I woke up, had breakfast with my mom because my dad was at work, drove out to the recruiter's office, like, 20 minutes, 30 minutes away, signed up, and just kinda sat there from there. You know?

Sam: 02:54

Were you in boot camp when 9/11 happened?

Jason: 02:56

I was in the delayed entry program for quite a while, and then 9/11 happened, so I didn't like, I was supposed to ship within weeks. It was like, just get me the heck out of here, but I guess when you've got a 18 year old kid who's already signed up, they're gonna they're gonna kinda stage the chessboard for where they need to fill a quota. So then, it was like, well, 9/11 popped off, and it's like, well, get me out of here. I wanna go do stuff. It's like, well, yeah.

Jason: 03:20

We've got hundreds of people signing up, so we'll get to you when we get to you. And so they kept shifting me around, but I actually didn't head off to boot camp until December of o one.

Sam: 03:28

You're 18, about to go into the Marine Corps, a a combat unit. 9/11 happened, and you were just, let me in. Let me in. I wanna go.

Jason: 03:35

Yeah. I mean, it it wasn't and I I was an artillery man when I started, and I just ended up doing just like anything. My entire adult life has been falling back ass into cool scenarios that I don't deserve to be in. But it was it was honestly, I signed up to get out of here and try to do something I originally wanted to do, like, air force or navy. It just kinda follow the trade route, but the artillery thing seemed pretty interesting.

Jason: 03:57

Maybe the recruiter just needed to fill a bill, and I don't know, but he sold it. And so I signed up for that. And then, you know, I never really had athis is so long ago at 41 years old, but I never really had that regret or the equivalent of buyers remorse or anything. It was just more like even keel. Let's just kind of sit or get off the pot for lack of a better term.

Jason: 04:18

And then when that went, it really reaffirmed like, okay, this went from getting some college money and traveling to big boy rules now. And it was like, well, I don't know what I don't know, but still want to do this. And then I think you layer in just some ignorance of youth and stuff like that, just the the generic wanna go get some kinda thing. You know, that was pretty much it. So once they sent me December, it was like, yeah, for this is what we're doing now.

Sam: 04:43

Where'd you end up deploying?

Jason: 04:45

So that's the funny part of all that, like, moto stuff. Ended up sitting in Hawaii and Japan for three and a half years or so, and had to it was luckily, like, we got volunteer there was a program going that we could volunteer for to go, like, to Afghanistan. But ahead of Afghanistan, it was your traditional 3rd marine division deployments. So we went to Okinawa for 6 or 7 months at a time, and then punched out to various spots throughout Asia. But I mean, it really was a wonderful experience of everything from Singapore, Thailand, Japan, Korea, you name it.

Jason: 05:16

Like, we went all over Asia, and that was a really cool experience. And then when all that got said and done, the option to go to Afghanistan came and went for that, and ended up having to extend for another year and some change to make that work. And so that was pretty much it, man. It was in and out of Hawaii for 4 yearsroughly 4 years, and then spent back to back deployments in Afghanistan for a year, give or take, somewhere around a year.

Sam: 05:39

Was it a 1 year deployment or 2 smaller deployments?

Jason: 05:42

So it started original plan was a at least this is how I understood it and remember it, But it started off as a 1 year, and then they decided to move us back to just a 6 month once we were already in country, so guys could volunteer to kind of relieve in place and do a second deployment or go home at this new 6 month mark. And almost everybody in our group stayed for the full long haul. One guy ended up signing on for another 3 months. But yeah, so it was the equivalent of 2 deployments as it was administratively listed, and then it was just basically staying in country for a year. We don't really have a plan for this, so you guys just relieve yourselves and stay for another 6 months while we figure it out.

Sam: 06:24

So what did you get into over that 12 month period in Afghanistan?

Jason: 06:28

Man, it was slow to start. So this was the early, early days of the embedded teams, and we were in the southeast of Afghanistan when it was an army country. So we were in a little area called the Pektika province, And according to locals, it was a country called Waziristan, which is not a real place, but we landed in Bagram and then punched out to our fobs. And a group of us went to Tilman to start and then had to convoy and bring a group. This and this was like the precursor to the Afghan National Army.

Jason: 07:00

Like, there was no NATO weapons or supplies. Like, we'd find a a supply of RPGs and AKs and be like, cool. You guy who doesn't have a gun yet? Here's one. You know?

Jason: 07:07

So this was very poorly supervised. We were maybe 15 marines, 2 corpsmen, so 17 of us and of, I believe, 30 ish total marines in country. So like I said, poorly supervised, but that made for a lot of fun. We started off in Tillman, worked our way up to Burmel, and then from Burmel, we worked between Burmel and Shk'an as our primary fobs on the border there in Pakistan. So it was a lot of just open patrolling with really no outcomes, And, you know, we'd find a lot of weapons and stuff, but that's not anything crazy over there.

Jason: 07:39

And we fell in in a our our fob at the time was run by 3rd group, so we got to cut our teeth with the guys from ODA 332, and they taught us I mean, basically, they taught us everything on how to stay alive. If we have no losses on our team, do the stuff that we do, and it's probably gonna go okay for you. We're, like, awesome. So literally just pull out notebooks and and learn from those dudes. But gunfighting started in the spring, and then we'd work between the border and out in the mountains back and forth.

Jason: 08:04

And then it's, you know, it's just typical stories of, you know, some ambushes. Selfishly, we were fortunate that IEDs didn't really start at a large level until our last couple of months in country, so we didn't get a whole lot of experience there. Gunfights, a little bit of the IED and the old munitions from the Soviet era being repurposed. And I want to say that we did some benefit in the big picture thinking of training up these militias and then essentially converting them into the ANA, but I really don't think that we made a bit of a difference in hindsight far as the big picture goes, but

Sam: 08:41

To maybe wrap up the military, what was the best aspect of the military you had, and what was the worst aspect of the military?

Jason: 08:48

The two sides of the coin of leadership, in all honesty. There's still lessons that is running my business and everything now from the good leaders that are forever embedded in me, and it's probably a byproduct of aging, but the more and more experiences that I can remember and recall from bad supervisors, you know, I'm not going to say bad leadership because I don't think there is such a thing as a bad leader. A leader is good sort of by nature, and there's bad dudes or shitheads that fall in leadership roles. But in the immediate, the piss poor management and and fake leadership was terrible to endure, but being so far separated from the military and in charge of some stuff now, those lessons of terrible leadership or or management are invaluable at this phase of my life. So I I have to say that the good leadership that we experienced was wonderful because that really kinda set your foundation.

Jason: 09:43

But more beneficial than that was the terrible examples of of men in leadership roles that shouldn't be there because it it teaches you exactly how you shouldn't behave or treat human beings. So that would definitely be 2 versions of the best experience. And then the worst, I mean, I would say in the in the immediate was being at the mercy of those guys in those bad people in leadership roles. That was the worst portion of it. And then now, I mean, there's really no negative at the end of the day other than, you know, a few missed nights of sleep and whatever.

Jason: 10:18

Like, may my problems be so small? So I really have no no real negatives I've drawn from the military, minus, you know, bad knees. What can you do about that and whatnot? So it was a wonderful experience for me.

Sam: 10:29

Yeah. I've had a super similar experience. It's hard to articulate. You said it well. Like, you see a really good leader, you don't know the magic that goes into that Mhmm.

Sam: 10:38

That how they actually did it. But a bad leader, it's a concrete. Just don't do that.

Jason: 10:42

A 1000%.

Sam: 10:43

So having that military experience coming back out, what's something that the military did extremely well that the you think the private sector should do more of?

Jason: 10:51

Man, I would say efficiency. In all honesty, the the simplicity and and organization of, like, fire teams. Like, cool. You got a couple years under your belt, you got 3 new guys. Guys.

Jason: 11:01

Squad leader has, you know, 3 fire team leaders. Platoon sergeant has 3 squad leaders. Like the just the very simplicity in organization and the the path of least resistance from point A to point B typically gets the job done. The biggest joke in the Marines, like when you kind of pick up corporal, at least for us, was the best way to get things done is just have PFCs and Lance Corporals just tell them to get it done, and they're gonna find the most efficient way to get it done because it's their liberty or their lunch hour at risk. So they're gonna knock it out of the park and not overcomplicate things.

Jason: 11:37

And I feel that that's kind of what's missing in the private sector or even depending on how you define private sector. So like for profit businesses, non profits, things like that are what most people consider private. And then for us and the work we do contracting and our education component, it's like we call our private work, the things we do at federal, at various stages of government. I would say if the private sector, whether it's the the public facing private sector which most of us refer to, you really don't kind of break the habit or the culture of priding oneself and overcomplicating very simple tasks. I think that this thing would be a hell of a lot more efficient.

Jason: 12:12

But when you balance, let's say, performance based professions like commission based or if you've got a certain volume of work to get done, there are some tech companies that they don't give you an 8 hour day, you just get a task list, and when it's done, it's done, and you go home. So if you reward efficiency, things become more efficient. And if you just follow the standard, like, you know, I was a police officer for a while, and I made the same amount of money if I wrote 40 tickets a day or 0 tickets. And it's like, well, for some people who aren't wired to basically reap what you sow or eat what you kill, things can get convoluted and pretty complicated for no real reason. Man, don't make things more complicated than they have to be.

Jason: 12:50

Like Excel Microsoft Excel is a pretty simple platform to navigate, man.

Sam: 12:54

There's a lot of talk, I'd say over the last 10 years, particularly over the last 5 years about the transition from the military to the civilian world. It's it's tough. You transitioned out before, I think, there was almost any interest in figuring out how to make that easier for the operators when they get out. Did you have a difficult time when you transition out of the Marine Corps?

Jason: 13:15

At the time, no. You know, that's the benefit of, like, the ignorance of youth. I left at 23. In hindsight, dude, I was a freaking mess. And, you know, I don't wanna, like, peel back layers and make this all, like, boohoo, woe is me stuff because, you know, it's fine.

Jason: 13:30

But, yeah, man, when I got out, it was the accountability component. So we came home from war fighting in, call it, Halloween 'six, and there really wasn't a lot of programs in place like for decompression or like the warrior transition stuff that eventually came out. So at least in our base, it was like, man, sign up for this roster. Make sure you hit these 3 courses, and then you're you're re adapted. You're good to go back into stateside military service.

Jason: 13:57

And it's like we're 20 something year old Marines, you're going to figure out how to game that and then go get hammered in the barracks at noon. It's not a big deal. And then looking back on it, that was a critical component was 2 or 3 months of post war fighting, but military service, and then military service to civilian life was like, Man, we really mishandled that, but I don't really think that there was a big focus on quality of life or any sort of end state. Been privy to some of these dudes who have handled it well and poorly, and just gathering experience from them is that the guys who really embraced the training options to readapt are doing much better than the guys who went my route who just tried to drink it away and distract herself from any sort of unpacking. And, you know, I personally believe outside looking in over all these years now, that it has gotten a heck of a lot better, man.

Sam: 14:58

Let's bridge the gap from getting out of the military to West Side Park. How did you end up?

Jason: 15:02

We had to figure something out, and Jess, my wife, kind of tricked me into opening a gym because I think like any good wife or partner, they know how to push your buttons. So she, you know, kind of taunted me into opening a gym as a challenge. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. But I didn't really know how so we had the same tattoo artist. And she set up a quick meeting to for Drew, the guy who did our tattoos, to teach me how to start a business.

Jason: 15:24

And it turns out you just basically call the IRS, get a number, and now you have a business. And just go set up a checking account, you're good. So, thankfully, that was a simple process. And so we were running a CrossFit affiliate for a while, which led to finding West Side Barbell back on the main page back in the day. I mean, this is 'seven, 'eight.

Jason: 15:44

Then by May of '09, we left the garage and went brick and mortar. So we run across it having a great time doing it, and then that led us to getting some fighters and stuff in here when MMA was kind of on the rise, and my wife's, sort of, lifelong best friend was a dude who was fighting in the WEC, and then the UFC absorbed the WEC, but we had been training and inadvertently had gone from, I would say, fitness enthusiasts to, oh, shit, we have pro athletes in our gym now, and we better not screw this up. And that was the catalyst for kind of pursuing education in regard to strength and conditioning. And so we tooled around CrossFit main site and found Westside Barbell in the, sort of, like friends and family section back when the page was yellow and it was like real real basic. It was awesome.

Jason: 16:33

Awesome era, but went out to a seminar at Westside, and this is October, give or take, October 9, and I remember because I was a rookie cop, and it was, like, might have had to swipe my own squad car that I wasn't allowed to use to drive to Columbus because we we only had one car, and we broke as shit. I'm like, well, I know I could gas this thing up. And the Kenneth side, you know, I've donated some money to the IOP since then to make good. But went out there to the seminar, and this was one of the first ones when Lou, you know, used to have the seminar at the gym there versus, you know, shutting that down and just punching out teams to teach it. So I went out there and sat in on the seminar, learned everything we were missing here.

Jason: 17:12

You know, we we knew we needed to get stronger, not just fitter, you know? Breathing is good, but, you know, we always use the the the term in our in our work now. We always kind of encourage people to find the working balance of ass and mass versus gas. And it's like, okay, so I don't need a 65 pound barbell monster, I need someone who can, you know, balance it out. And, yeah, I think this stuff has evolved so much now that, you know, back in the day, the goal was a 500 pound deadlift in, was a 7 minute row or whatever it was, and now it's like you see what those boys are doing at the games.

Jason: 17:47

Now it's insane, but it that's kinda what started the Westside thing, and then just kind of coming back and forth from there. I lived about 4 and a half hours from Westside Barbell where I'm at now, and, Lou, you know, he's passed, but Lou, his entire life since I knew him, was always like, you're always welcome to train. Visitors always like education, education, so I just kept going back and forth over and over and over again to just sit in, you know, fly on the wall with a notebook kind of thing, and started going out there. And then Lou recalled who I was from the seminar, because I was the only guy that bought books. So I was like, oh, shit.

Jason: 18:20

I didn't know Louie hated pictures at the time, so everyone's getting their photos and stuff. And, of course, I got one too, but, you know, everyone over the racing get photos of Lou, and I I'm sitting here thinking, I'm like, man, there's only a few books on the table because West Side the business then is nowhere near what it is now. And so I'm like, Fuck, dude. I'm not real tough, and I'm probably going to have to fist fight over these books because I only see 2 or 3 of them. And obviously, there was dozens of copies in the boxes behind the table, but like I said, I'm not too sharp, man.

Jason: 18:48

And, sent her to get the books and, you know, I guess that made a good impression on Lou because Lou was a book nerd for sure, man. And, you know, bringing back that stuff about MMA, it's like we made the joke when we first started talking about just falling back asswards into cool scenarios. We're we're at the fights. Our dude is fighting. I can't remember which card it was, but it was one of the John Jones cards, and so our buddy was co main.

Jason: 19:10

And Dana White used to do the behind the scenes video with his iPhone, and everyone was just leaving the sauna and our dude had a Westside hoodie on which wasn't a sponsorship or anything. It was a sponsorship or anything. It was just, man, dude gets out of the sauna, you just wrap him in a sweat suit so the heat stays. And I mean, I don't I don't know what it's like in your neck of the woods, but every gym bro has or should have a Westside barbell hoodie. Like that's just the way the world works.

Jason: 19:32

And so, you know, like I said, I mean, it was this fast, man, of of our guy walking across the screen leaving the sauna, and Westside put up this huge post on Facebook about, you know, who's this, what's this? Because back then there was no map. There was no roadmap for MMA and strength conditioning at least. I never fought in the UFC or anything like that. But it seemed the writing was on the wall that this whole system that is West Side Barbell makes a lot of sense for fighting.

Jason: 19:56

And we figured some stuff out that worked for our guy at the time, and that's kind of what got us on the radar because I'd reach back out after seeing that post because we'd be able to report with some of the guys over the years. This was 'nine from the seminar to about 2012 when that video was taken, and we just figured out a way to train using the methods for MMA, but Lou loved fighting of all sorts, you know. And we sent a note like, Hey, man. I saw the post. This is what we're talking about.

Jason: 20:28

There's our guys in the UFC, and you have to think back then, everybody had the next heavyweight champ, the next this, because this thing was so new to the world that it's like, no, when we say our dude's in the UFC, he's legitimately in that lead, man, so we're not embellishing the success of our athletes. And, again, it's their success, we just basically count to 10 for them and run a stopwatch as a strength coach. But that caused Lou to bring us out to be like, alright, let's see who these people are. And then Lou connected the red wire. He's like, oh, you're the guy from the seminar that's been coming out here.

Jason: 20:58

I'm like, yeah. Like, this is our dude we were telling you about. They're like, okay, cool. And then Lou and Tom Berry, who, you know, Irish Tom, who's running the show now out there since Lou's passed, They beat the unholy crap out of us. You know, we drove 4 and a half, 5 hours out there, and it was like we got out of the car.

Jason: 21:13

Of course, we were a little bit late because that's just the way the world works. It's like trying to make a good first impression, show up 15 minutes late. Just immediate, like, right to like physical hazing. But it was I mean, it was awesome. It wasn't like you know, it wasn't just being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk.

Jason: 21:27

It was like, we're gonna really see what these dudes have because it's it's no joke there, like, inside the walls of West Side Barbell regardless of what era. And so, you know, no matter what, it's, you know, from what I'm experiencing around being around some of you dudes, it's the same thing of like, if you're good at something, they're just gonna find a way to make you bad at it. No matter what you do at some point in your life, you know, it's not a forever lifestyle. And so it's basically a vetting process to see if these guys are kinda, you know, pusses or whatnot. And so we got our initial round out of the way, and then Tom and I believe Matt was there, Matt Brown.

Jason: 21:58

You know, a handful of fighters were training in the gym there at the time as well. They went off to go do whatever it is they did that did not look comfortable. And I went and lifted weights with Lou and like you got to balance not being a puss and also answer a million questions from God knows what about physics to kinesiology to this, that, and the other. And while you're getting the hell beat out of you by, you know, the godfather of all this stuff, we just got in the car and went home after lunch and then got home to an email of basically, you know, you work here now. We don't know what you're going to do, but you're here.

Jason: 22:29

And, you know, it's like, okay, we said more smart things than stupid things apparently. And then over the course of the next year or 2, our guy ended up fighting for a title in the UFC, another John Jones card, so somehow just got to send that dude a thank you card apparently someday. But, you know, we got our dude to the the highest levels. Didn't go his way, unfortunately. But, you know, performed well.

Jason: 22:51

Everything went well, and we were working in the business of Westside Barbell, training athletes, running my gym, and the whole time being a cop. And then something had to give after all those years of trying to do everything all the time. So talked to my wife, and, you know, she said, Why don't we button up the law enforcement and you go full time at Westside, which was an option that was presented to me, and that kinda separated me from law enforcement at the end of 2014. And, you know, it was a great department. I try to speak There's a lot of bad just like military, there's a lot of shitheads, but there's a lot of world class people there as well.

Jason: 23:21

And it was a wealth of experience I'm grateful for. But they kept me on payroll through vacation and comp time and all that stuff for a little while so I could transition to full civilian life versus quasi police ish. It gets weird there. And then that's what led to me full time at Westside Barbell and then fell in on the business side of things and education, and then that just kept growing. And then my gym here kind of turned into the outpost, and then it's just been kind of a version of that ever since, for lack of a better term.

Sam: 23:50

Let's maybe zoom out for those who don't know what website is and who Lou is. And, if you can give, like, a brief overview of those 2 and then how you fit conjugate tactical into that whole framework. Let's go there.

Jason: 24:02

Yeah. So Westside Bar Bill, you know, the address has changed. Blue has passed. But, ultimately, no matter where it's located geographically, that, you know, I'm try I'm a huge fan. Don't get me wrong.

Jason: 24:14

I am a diehard company guy that blew put the dog on my leg in 2013, so there's no going back even if I wanted to. But no matter where the gym has been located, if it's the current location, 497 Industry Drive, the spaces that predated to include Lou's Garage, for most, it's the tip of Drive, the spaces that predated to include Lou's Garage, for most, it's the tip of the spear as far as the advancement of sports science. And the theme there or the overarching ethos is that we follow the conjugate method which is a Soviet based method of strength training that takes into account the multitude of special strengths that are out there. So, you know, you always hear the, like, gotta be fast but strong, gotta have a gas tank but, you know, also deadlift, anything like we kind of glanced at earlier, but it's all being executed there already. So all of this stuff is there for the taking, and Leo organized it into what we know the conjugate method to be nowadays or the West Side Barbell methods by combining the former Soviet Bulgarian work.

Jason: 25:11

This is what stems from the Dynamo Club if anyone does go down this rabbit hole. But everything that was being performed by the Eastern European countries prior to the fall of the Soviet Union and then combined it with some of the special exercises work that was being done out in Culver City, California while he was in the army because Lou was drafted during the Vietnam era but sent to Germany in lieu of Vietnam. And so Lou had this what should be consideredin my opinion, and I should say my opinion, but what I consider to be cutting edge information for the West on how to train between the guys at Culver City and then the methodology of the conjugate system and that morphed into what I would consider most to be the conjugate system or the Westside methods today. And then, Lou himself is the guy that put it all together, you know? He he started Westside as a tribute to the Culver City Barbell Club, named it as such, and it's kind of the less than ideal portion of Columbus, Ohio.

Jason: 26:06

And then for the actual existence of it, take all of those components and ingredients, and he's essentially the driver who's been beta testing and and creating the advancement of sports science under the West Side Barbell methodology for, you know, prior to his passing, 30, 40 years of all of it. So, ultimately, most of us consider him to be the, I would say, the godfather of all things strength in the United States and probably the world. And then Westside Barbell is his gym slash company that all of us have fallen under. And then Conjugate Tactical, it was prior to taking a name in 2018 when we started The Conjugate Club, which is Westside's online training platform. This really was just the work that we did.

Jason: 26:51

You know, we vamped up the system to train our MMA dudes here at the gym in Indiana, And as a byproduct of being prior military and but, you know, I wasn't a soft guy or anything, but had some military experience and then my law enforcement experience, the questions that come across their plate and granted, I worked on the business side of the house at Westside, not a lift or fork. Like, you're not gonna see my name anywhere near those record boards out there. But conjugate tactical before it was named that in 2018 due to the conjugate club was just the work at Westside because all of us have a collateral duty there and that you should if you're not an athlete, you should be an instructor slash educator, coach, whatever you wanna call it. And when the questions would come in, like, well, how do I do this for law enforcement? And this, again, predates the the tactical strength and conditioning stuff that's out now.

Jason: 27:41

It was like, oh, man. Well, like, here's what we do to train our guys. And just, again, falling back asswards into it, our dudes that we're fighting, that's 80%, you know, 80 20 rule. But 80% of what a majority of the the whether it's a special operator, big mill, law enforcement fire, you know, this first responder space, the the outside of the intensity and the techniques of fighting, this is a very similar demand series of demands that these folks need, and so we started organizing training and it would fall on my plate to answer those questions or travel to speak to those groups or departments, units, etcetera. And then, you know, when we released The Conjugate Club, Tom Berry, like I said, he's a fellow that's running the show now.

Jason: 28:21

He was lose number 2 for years years years, and now he's the operator of of West Side Barbell. But my section of The Conjugate Club was tactical, and I was like, okay. And so we started trying to organize our workouts for the masses, you know, and that presents challenges and whatnot, but it started to get legs underneath it. And it's like, oh, shit. Well, we go to great lengths to hide my gym locally here in Indiana because we don't really wanna deal with a whole lot of people.

Jason: 28:45

And so it makes no sense to run a company we're trying to hide and then expand into this existence of conjugate tactical, so we morphed the company and that's really how it was launched. And once it seemed like a good idea, like any good friend, and I love Tom to death, he's a good human being and considered man like a brother, I did what anyone would do and trademark and copyright conjugate tactical for myself so that he can't have it. But that's, I mean, again, short answer made long, that's the the gist of how everything kinda came to be is this is just the work we've always done. But when it took a name, it really kind of it became a thing. And now that we've got a team of people, we've got our accounts and units that we work for, the public side of what we do as well, it's like, oh, now we've now we've got a real organization that needs to be tended to.

Jason: 29:33

And so now it's, you know, now it's treated as a a full blown business entity versus just a style of training.

Sam: 29:40

To show my bias, I do conjugate tactical, and I've done a lot of programs over the years. And when I got out of the military like you, my knees, my back, my hips just fucked. And, I still wanted to go hard. I still wanted to go all out in the gym just to feel that and still feel alive. And most programs, more cross finish oriented would just would crush me for too long.

Sam: 30:01

When I started doing yours, there's maximal effort throughout the program. Mhmm. But for some reason, I started feeling better.

Jason: 30:07

That's awesome.

Sam: 30:08

And got stronger. And, I mean, just what what is the magic built in the program that allows you to go max effort, dynamic effort, repetitive effort, and then still feel better at the end of the day?

Jason: 30:19

So there's there's noI wouldn't say magic necessarily, there's just an understanding. If I had any hobbies or interests in life whatsoever outside of just doing gym stuff, it probably wouldn't exist. But the the before we get into any of that, the the statement I always like to preface all of that with is that if any of this works for you, the thumbs up or the tip of the cap goes up the food chain to the legacy of Louie Simmons and West Side Barbell. And if it doesn't work for you, it's because I delivered a shitty adaptation of it. So it's taking the components, and granted at Westside Barbell, we're known for power lifting and all the crazy stuff.

Jason: 30:56

Like if, you know, the the 3 minutes in that bigger, faster, stronger documentary from back in the day, That predates me, but then there's the new documentary. There's all kinds of stuff going on. The power lifting side is is, honestly, that's the the public perception. That's the the little peak that everyone sees, and the the base underneath it is decades decades of research, sports science applied to the scientific method, trial and error, cutting and pasting, problem solving, whatever term you wanna use. So we just did a lot of that.

Jason: 31:27

And like I said, we've gotten really lucky with what we believed pro MMA fighters at the WEC, UFC level needed back in 2008, 2009 timeframe and built upon that. And so to actually answer your question, the first component is understanding the demand. So, again, I've worked with dudes like you and some, you know, guys like you that it's like, okay, those demands are much more intense, but they're not all that different from, you know, a different profession or a different style of this. So it's like, okay. Well, we pair up that demand.

Jason: 32:02

IE, you know, in our space, maybe it's running a mile or clearing rooms or bounding or any number of, you know, you throw on your American flag tough guy shirt or whatever all that stuff is. You know? It's like okay well each one of those demands carries with it data. It's like okay well at what speed is your heart rate while you're performing task a or at what speed is this weight moving. It doesn't really matter if it's a barbell or a human being or, you know, I always use the In our seminars, I always use the example of law enforcement in that, you know, we always prepare for doomsday, the wolf, all that cool stuff.

Jason: 32:36

There's And yeah, it's very, very important. You should shoot, fight, and do all those things to make sure you're taken care of because there are good police officers out there. Not all of them are bad, but there are bad ones. So it's like, okay, all those things are very, very important. But I would say a majority of law enforcement injuriesand there's statistical data all over the place, we work with the academy here, but injuries come from dragging dead deer off the highway, pushing a disabled vehicle off to the shoulder, not always getting shot or getting the hell beat out of you and things like that.

Jason: 33:05

So it's like, okay, there's a degree of durability and resilience. Well, how do we do that? The repetition method. You know, if you're pushing that vehicle and your heart rate spikes through the roof and it's moving at point 3 to point 5 meters per second or less, you're displaying some degree of maximal strength that may be kind of anecdotal, admittedly. But it's like, okay, very strong, have a gas tank, and be able to move quickly because, you know, then you flip back to the doomsday stuff of law enforcement.

Jason: 33:31

It's like, man, you just got done pushing a vehicle, and 30 minutes later, you're fighting a crackhead. You don't know what's gonna happen. So that idea of readiness really kind of appeared very, very appealing to us. And, you know, to kinda predate all of it going back to the very beginning of law enforcement at one of the SWAT conferences, and I swear there's a purpose behind this. I'm sorry.

Jason: 33:50

But at the very beginning of my law enforcement career, I went to a SWAT conference here in Indiana, and there was a a dude named Peter Blaber was the guest speaker, and he'd released a book called The Mission to Men and Me.

Sam: 34:01

Delta Force. Yeah.

Jason: 34:02

Yeah. Yeah, dude. Got to meet this guy, listen to him talk, and we talk about the examples of, like, great leadership, military, poor leadership, all that stuff. Put that in the same audience of of law enforcement officers listening to this dude speak and, like, KAG's pretty cool, man. Like, that's a pretty cool group.

Jason: 34:18

You know? I I, obviously, I'd never worked there or, you know, I've met some of the dudes who have and learned a lot from guys directly to indirectly who've followed different paths. But it's like, man, this is a pretty intelligent dude. He's got some great things to say, and there's SWAT cops. Good cops and bad cops, don't get me wrong, across numerous departments are, you know, the the I always call it the, you don't want me to see red bro, that crowd.

Jason: 34:43

It's like, I feel like we should be listening to the guy who ran Delta. But anyway, he had a chapter on there, a chapter in his book which was world class titled Don't Plan, Prepare. So the idea of preparedness is where I was going with that was rooted in early inadvertently by attending this conference. And it was like, well, that's what we need the west side system for, this conjugate method for is to prepare these bodies, and we did it for MMA by building a great base for the jujitsu coach, the striking coach, the MMA coach to work with. And then, you know, that evolved into tactical of, well, well, yeah, I don't I don't know how to be a SEAL, but the dudes we've met, it seems like we need to be able to bash through doors, do the job, maintain endurance, all the same demands.

Jason: 35:27

They're just flavored relatively differently across profession, and then with varying levels of intensity, and I would call it practicality, and that like law enforcement, for example. I would say one of the most tame things you could do is probably be the number 2 on a canine track. So the dog handler is doing his thing. He's just gotta have a second body with him to do cop stuff if it's needed. And it's like, oh, you're just basically walking.

Jason: 35:52

That's zone 2, zone 3 cardio depending on the terrain and the temperature outside. But then, you know, and I was a police officer from 09 to to early 2015. That was the era of those dudes doing those bath salt things. So it's like we went for a nice walk in the woods, and now we're fighting a dude roped out of his mind on bath salts. So you talk about sliding scale of intensity, it's like, well, that's the sauce.

Jason: 36:16

It's like, well, how do we manage that? And, again, it's all in the context of the West Side methods of ensuring the intensity ebbs and flows because, you know, we'll make this joke with some of the guys on our instructor team as well who follow the path that you guys did of like, man, I never went to BUDS. You know, one of the boys took me around the campus there to tour everything. It was amazing, you know, great experience because I didn't have to do the things you guys did.

Sam: 36:40

You could smell the vomit.

Jason: 36:41

Yeah. It seems like a pretty unhappy place. But it's like, man, if you use that for example and again, this is my interpretation. I don't know what I don't know. But it's like that was a few months of your life, not your entire career.

Jason: 36:55

And physical training or the pursuit of this athletic readiness takes a similar theme in that not everything needs to be a death festival, murder, kill, destroy yourself, but at some point, longevity becomes quite appealing and the demands change, or even the goals change throughout the career. And it's like, well, training should mirror that. You know, it doesn't necessarily be the specificity of working with a 100 meter sprinter or a hurdler or anything like that. But if you kind of balance Lou's development of the West Side system against that one chapter in Peter Blaber's book about prepare, don't plan, that really that was the catalyst for Westside Barbell to to launch the tactical program, and then it's evolved into our our stand alone company now for the last 6 years, give or take.

Sam: 37:45

When you think about longevity, a lot of people would hear max effort, so, like, a 3 rep max back squat or a 1 rep max deadlift as being not longevity. Is there an age cap on your programs, or do you think that that is longevity that a a 60 year old man who is with a moderate weightlifting background could jump into this program?

Jason: 38:03

I I would say yes without being just like a a generic company guy that we've got every answer you could ever need. It really is, like, with the context, but that's where, you know, you've gotta read. Like, YouTube, all this stuff, but at Westside Man, like, Lou told us to read books, so we read books. And then you reread the books numerous times and interpret it differently. You read them in different orders, and the data is interpreted differently.

Jason: 38:24

You know? But if you look at the concept of max effort, you know, or the max effort method per se, there's the lift itself depending on what force velocity curve you read, what tribe you believe in, that kind of stuff, ultimately, we've got a barbell moving at 0.3 to 0.5 meters per second or slower against external load, which would be the plates on the bar. So if you don't get caught upand that's why I love what we do with maturing adults, you know, our private work is we don't really have a lot of 19 year old hard charters. We got dudes that went through that phase, they wanna stay in the game. But when it comes to the actual maximal lifts themselves, it's culture based.

Jason: 39:05

And the reason I say that is if your entire life is smelling salts, chalks, slapping each other, death metal, dude, you're gonna fizzle out quick. But if you use the actual meat and potatoes of the method, that contraction simultaneously trains the central nervous system and provides a very strong signal to the musculature needed to lift that barbell at 0.3 to 0.5 meters per second or slower. So if you resist the urge to compare yourself to world record holders, and just I call it an AA comparison versus an AB comparison, or apples to oranges, apples to apples, whatever analogy you wanna use. It really doesn't matter if you're 75 years old lifting £50, or 25 years old lifting 500 or 700, £800, whatever these guys are doing nowadays, because the method is the parameters you follow to lift the barbell at a specified speed. And then the way we organize it in tactical and there's a lot of great coaches out there in organizations and whatnot.

Jason: 40:02

But the way we organize it in tactical is just kinda based off of experience, man. Like, you know, if if you even without the the pistols and uniforms of military and law enforcement, even at Westside, when we go we used to travel and do the seminars all the time, it was like max effort Monday. No matter what, if if it's a one rep max deadlift on the board, we're doing it. And this is, again, my gym in Indiana, not Westside proper. That's a totally different monster.

Jason: 40:29

But it was like after 14, 18 hours in a truck, come back and try to lift heavy as possible, it almost always has resulted in a minor injury. So it's like, okay, well, we'll dial that back to a heavy set of 3 or a heavy set of 5 or maybe just pull a sled. It's like, okay, there's all these variables that throw you away from optimal. And as long as you take that into account and train, I would say, a culture based training ethos around it's okay to use discretion and common sense of like if you're not at your best that day, don't push yourself to the limit. And that can transcend any age or capacity in regard to this stuff.

Jason: 41:05

But if you're training under an ethos or in a culture that is no excuses, whatever it is, there may not be excuses, yeah, excuses are not okay. But there might be very great reasons why that individual shouldn't run a 200 meter sprint on pavement with a 50 pound rock sack. You know, and taking that into account with, again, I only spent 5 years and change in the military, and I spent just about the same amount of time in law enforcement. So I don't know everything, but our team's got a wealth of experience. And it appears that giving guys the green light to take care of themselves, it's all that's really missing from a lot of great organizations.

Jason: 41:42

And when we organize our training, it's not necessarily forthere's nothing wrong. You can train with us however you want. Like I'm not cool enough to tell people no. But if you're looking for the theatrical side or the entertainment side, man, we don't need to yell at you. We don't need to haze you and insult you if you miss a time standard or any of that stuff.

Jason: 42:02

It's like, man, I couldmy primary training partner was a UFC bantamweight for 12 or 13 years in a weight room, and I could out deadlift him. And then when we hit the grappling mats or, God forbid, put on the gloves, which was a mistake I made one time with that fellow, you realize that this stuff is not the end all be all for everything. It's a portion of a formula that equates either an operator, a soldier, a Marine, a police officer, a fireman. Your strength conditioning is a base to build from, not the end all, be all. But admittedly, that does not sell t shirts, so I think that that's where I think it's where a part of a disconnect is.

Sam: 42:39

From what I remember is you I think you have 4 different programs under the contact of tactical info. You got the basic, the dorker, the engine, and I think downrange.

Jason: 42:49

Yeah.

Sam: 42:49

Can you kinda give a brief overview of those 4 different ones for people who might look into it?

Jason: 42:53

Yeah. So first off, naming them goes to our our kettlebell instructor and my right hand man, the dude named Zach. We kinda stole them from CrossFit. He was the kettlebell subject matter expert, him and Jeff Martone. But he's told me that calling things like endurance based programming, he's like, people don't like that.

Jason: 43:09

So the names the the credit of the names go to Zach. But basic program is basically how we train in the gym here. There's all all the programs have an emphasis in strength. Maximal strength is the cornerstone of what we do, unlike we talk. There's a it's a okay to let the intensity ebb and flow.

Jason: 43:26

Like, I love when people set PRs, but no one's gonna pay you $500 for bumping your bench up $5, at least not in this gym. So every program has an emphasis on that strength component if for no other reason, injury prevention. But basic is what we run-in the gym here since 2009, and it's just evolved into the Westside methodology. It's it's all we know now. So front, back, top, bottom, push, pull, general physical preparedness with an emphasis on strength as we all age in the gym here.

Jason: 43:55

You know, some of our folks have been in this gym for over 15 years, so they've gone from their thirties to their fifties with us, and we're just learning all along the way. And then when you go to engine, it's a degree of that, you know, a good main movement typically brought to a heavy set of 2 or 3 more so than always maxing out, but the work becomes a little bit more driven towards the endurance athlete. And it doesn't have to necessarily be a formal triathlon or anything like that. And I know the the hybrid athlete is coming back now, the power lifting and marathon running depending on where you're at in the year, and that's a wonderful expression of physicality as well. But for the most part, engine is designed for folks who like the heavy breathing more than the grunting, the grunting that comes with heavy weight lifting.

Jason: 44:38

It's very kettlebell and calisthenic based, So there's not as much variety in what we do as other institutions out there, and it's just based on the respect of our athletes in that like, dude, I'm professional gym bro. And as soon as I get around a high level grappler, everything that I'm good at is irrelevant with your best friend sitting on your chest reminding you how terrible you are at grappling. So a lot of the engine work goes towards the endurance guys and the strength the basic takes care of the general population. And then door kicker is for the folks that are kinda like, No, dude. That's all fine and dandy, but I like being big, explosive, and strong even at the expense of a gas tank.

Jason: 45:18

And a lot of that work is the idea ofwhat one of the guys said it best is like, Dude, I use this in case I need to clear an apartment building. And this goes back several years ago when there were still a lot of a lot of raiding and working overseas. Guys wanted to be in really good shape because you might take down 15, 20, 60 doors in a day. And again, very similar to fighting, but if you take away the danger of violence and the skill set, it's just work you know and that's not to disrespect jiu jitsu striking any of it. But if we get rid of the actual flavor of the the effort, it's just ultimately work.

Jason: 45:55

You know? So we wanna make sure that we train that work in a in a capacity that's befitting the athlete executing the training. So be very strong with an emphasis on recovering faster. Be very explosive because I don't need a 1,000 pound squatter who can't get out of the way of a right hook, you know? And then downrange is really justI don't wanna diminish it, but it's really a better than nothing option if you don't have access to a full gym.

Jason: 46:23

As a professional gym bro, I would rather get you out of the weight room in 45 minutes, recovered and onto the mats or back to the range in the shoot house, doing any number of of training, any number of skill sets under other subject matter experts than pretending the weight room is everything because it's not. It's the foundation of everything so that your instructors of other disciplines can build a better athlete or shooter or whatever it is. But downrange ultimately takes a little bit of everything, but is understanding that, like, you have access to a couple kettlebells. You know, gravity is always present so we can do calisthenics. And a barbell at this in 2025, a barbell, some plates and a squat rack or a squat stands, those are pretty readily available no matter where you're out on the planet.

Sam: 47:09

I always wondered this. What are your thoughts on zone 5 training, like, greater than 90% max heart rate? Mhmm. How often would you want that to be in a program ideally?

Jason: 47:17

So we we answer that in the seminar a lot, and I always make the joke that we're not gonna pay a university 18 to $22,000 to tell us this, so I don't have a college or a university study to prove it. But having trained, excuse me, been on a team that trained UFC level title contenders in fight camp, which is a window of 6 to 8 weeks leading up to a fight, we have that individual creating workouts 2 to 4 times a week depending on the level they're at that encourages zone 5 for 3 5 minute rounds or 5 5 minute rounds 2 or 3 times ahead of a title fight. So 6 to 8 weeks, folks that need it would be on a zone 5 sort of deep end of the pool. We call them hard hitter workouts 2 to 4 times a week. Average it out, call it 3 times a week in fight camp for the it is, but it's it's for a very short period of time, and it's for a very specified reason.

Jason: 48:17

Outside of that, 1 to 3 times a month or maybe once a week going into that deep end of the pool or the darkness, whatever you wanna call it, that zone 5, is for us, man, it's proven to be more more than enough for dudes from SOCOM down to Road Cops and, you know, veterans of both of those spaces or just general population. It's not a not a condescending term. You know, you guys it's you guys have given us some of the coolest coins on the shelf. Don't get me wrong. But helping, you know, it's still just as exciting after 17 years of doing that.

Jason: 48:49

You know, 16 years almost of running the gym and then years prior, but watching a gal get her first pull up, all those things are still just as exciting. So it's like, yeah, all that stuff, the general population is not a condescending term, but if there's no reason to live in zone 5, you don't have to go there.

Sam: 49:06

Let's pivot more to you as a as a coach. So you you entered this at a really unique time, I think, in in, like, training history where you saw the union of, Westside and their strength method with CrossFit, with military getting involved, law enforcement getting involved, and then it is starting to kind of branch out on its own again in many different directions. What maybe are some of the main, like, positives you've taken from all these different communities along the way from, like, a coach's perspective?

Jason: 49:35

I mean, I would say from the the lens, you know, the the coach's perspective, CrossFit was wonderful. I went to my level 1 in, I think, the fall of 07. So I'd just gotten out of the military. You know, we were overseas, and the cool guy units were doing it. So my dumbass was like, well, you guys are cool.

Jason: 49:52

I'll do that. You know, everything I was doing was terrible and wrong in hindsight, but it seemed cool. Got tired. So I went to the my level 1 in Blauer Tactical in Virginia Beach. So, your guys' backyard.

Jason: 50:02

So I met some dudes down there that kind of gave us some good information and things. And as, again, the lens to look through as a strength coach, when it comes to I would say the importance of culture, I left CrossFit in 2010, so I don't know what I don't know, but we're still in and out of that space with athletes and friends. But at that moment in time, culture, I don't think there's my window of time in CrossFit, I don't think there was a better institution as far as creating an importance on training culture and ethos than that era of CrossFit. Because you think about it, man, it was like everything you need is all encompassing or it's encased within its own environment. And yeah, you can put a pessimistic spin on anything, but it was like, dude, these guys are justyou got Dev Guru guys telling morbidly obese human beings that it's okay to walk this 5 k instead of running it in 16 minutes, you know?

Jason: 50:59

And I said, well, that's pretty neat. So the idea of layering in humility, competence, and scalability into a training culture that just people wanna lift weights and have a good time, there's no one better on the planet than that era of CrossFit. And that led into the specialty courses where I found Westside. And when it comes to I would say determination, the solution or problem solving in regard to building strength, There's no one better on that front than Westside Barbell because anyone who rivals Westsideand again, I'm biased as all hell. I'm not going anywhere else.

Jason: 51:36

I'll burn my gym down and stop weights before I speak ill of Westside Barbell because of all they've done for me. But I truly believe in what we do. But when it comes to creating strength and developing sports science, there's no one better at it than us. And by us, I mean, the institution in the history of Westside Barbell. Anyone says that they are, they can't.

Jason: 51:56

Everyone that's doing this has been built by Louie Simmons in one way, shape, or form. But when it comes to staying in your lane and being consistent in what you do, I would still have to say that Jim Jones is probably the best at it because they've never deviated from where they were prior to the movie 300 to where they are as of, what's today, 10th? From I found them prior to 300 when that whole thing came out, the Spartan movie now, and to where they're at now, it's damn near the same institution with evolution in it, you know? Things get better over the course of 20 years. But their ethos, their mindset, their approach to training is identical minus improvement to what it was years ago.

Jason: 52:37

So when it comes to that vein, it's like, well, that's another important box too is evolution is important, but you don't have to 90 degree pivot based on what's trending, and I don't think that they ever have. I hope and I truly believe that we do a good job of staying in our role as athletes and coaches and not overstepping our bounds into all the other areas of physicality that whether it's a special operator, a road cop, or you name it, we've got your back on strength and that's it.

Sam: 53:05

I I dig it. We we used Jim Jones early in the back in the Mark Twain days when I was in the team, their operator fitness program, a lot of good stuff. Pivoting a little bit. I I mean, let's dive into motivation real quick because I I learned in buzz and throughout later on that some people when they do this, anything, a workout program, something in the operator world, they're gonna do it to the point where they'll literally almost die trying to do it well. Their heart, mind, and fall into it.

Sam: 53:34

And then some people, they just don't give a fuck. Like, if you wanna have an early morning workout, someone's gonna say they'll be there the night before, they're gonna cancel on you. As a coach, have you found a way to get people to give a damn, or is there literally just an intangible in some people that they're just gonna be there no matter what and some people aren't?

Jason: 53:52

At risk of sounding a politician where instead of answering your question, I just go off on a tangent, which I unintentionally do. I don't wanna do it on purpose. But in regards to motivation, it's it's there's several approaches, I believe. Ensuring that when someone starts with us or, you know, whether it's in person, remotely, or just someone we've met in passing is to encourage that person, and that's where I'm huge on culture of like all the stuff has to make sense, man. You know, like, be in the military.

Jason: 54:21

Like, when you get to unblouse your boots and walk outside the wire, it's like, this is awesome versus having to do all the rules, you know? But it's like the culture thing is huge. And so it's like, okay, well, we encourage everyone to understand and appreciate that you have to have a realistic expectation of the outcomes based on the inputs. And it's like, man, if you don't using fighting, for example, like if you're not fighting in the UFC, we probably don't have to train full time like a guy who is. And so creating that sort of permission slip, for lack of a better term, that it's okay to train realistically within your goals and availability, that's kind of step 1 is that it's okay if you're not as big of a monster as this dude over here or killing it like she is over here.

Jason: 55:08

You're getting started, it's cool. But the main thing is to focus. For us, our biggest mission is longevity. And we tell them, like, man, if you are if you are in this to just destroy yourself every day, you're not gonna last. And then having a doubting Thomas is a wonderful thing.

Jason: 55:23

You know, someone who's like, I had your mindset, beat the hell out of myself, I pumped the brakes, and you know, like I said, the intensity intensity has to ebb and flow. So we try to really make that, you know, it's it's repeated, it's said out loud, it's mentioned numerous times in our seminars, our work, in our gym, and the writing we do online as well that it's like, man, motivation is great, but if you're relying on smelling salts, death metal, slapping each other every Monday when we're gonna deadlift, it's like, dude, that's not gonna last, man. I don't care what you're supplementing with or anything like that. You just can't stay on a razor's edge 247. So, admittedly, we've been so fortunate with some of our athletes and experiences that we've had that, you know, we can point you at the guy who used to think that way.

Jason: 56:06

And then when he started pumping the brakes on the crazy, his athletic progress started to to move forward. Things started to get better. When it comes to motivation and obligation, it's the it's the the teamwork approach of, you know, for the MMA stuff we did. I don't have any other pro athletes. I avoid them at all costs now.

Jason: 56:23

But it's like, for us, our our approach to MMA was it's a team sport with 1 competitor. And it's like, man, when we're when we're doing our training, I I've got nothing to offer on the technique side, but if someone's just gotta get beat on because that's part of the training session, then I got about £245 of of meat for you to shoulder while you're strapped into the belt slot and beat the hell out of. I got you. So for us, we've always placed a great emphasis on obligation to the team regardless of what that looks like. Whatever this group or this team or this unit you're involved with is like, man, like you said, if we're training at 5 AM and you wake up and that alarm clock, the sleepy's got you, you're not going, well, you need to know that you let your teammates down.

Jason: 57:03

And if we've got this thing moving well and the culture has to be tended to 247, it's like anything else, you gotta constantly be mindful of it. It's like, dude, when someone truly does get booted out or we don't want you around anymore and it shows consequences to those that remain, it's like, okay. Like, this is this is something of substance and we want to preserve it. I think that that overdoes motivation because everyone's gonna have good day, bad day. Don't like, I don't care if you're Jason Bourne, man.

Jason: 57:29

Like, everyone's gonna have an off day. But if you show up for the everybody that you train with, your training partners, man, that's gonna that's gonna outweigh that that self driven motivation.

Sam: 57:39

What about, I guess, last major question before we finish up with a lightning round? What is maybe one thing you learned as a coach in all these years that is, I guess, most fundamental to your craft that maybe would apply to, other people's craft, whether whether in business or military or sales or leadership or whatever?

Jason: 57:57

Yeah. I would say is hear everybody, but only listen to a select few. And I I don't mean that in an arrogant way, but, you know, there's that secret government organization of they say yeah. I'll put the tinfoil hat on, but, you know, advice is free, man. People can give it away, and it's it's not I I'm yet to meet anybody that I know for a fact gave me bad advice intentionally just to hurt me.

Jason: 58:22

You know? But I've been given a lot of bad advice inadvertently. And when I'm young and naive, it's it's it's terrifying back then. Like looking back of, like, man, we had like, we used to choose between lunch and dinner because we knew we weren't having both. And someone's telling me I gotta I gotta pay for this.

Jason: 58:37

I gotta sign up for that. You have to have this. So it became clear of like, you know, I'm not tough enough or cool enough to be a dick to anybody. So I'm always gonna nod and try and be polite, and I truly try my very best when I'm when I'm, you know, Jason, the individual in a conversation or a conference or anything. I really try my best to truly approach this with an open notebook and a pen and a clear slate.

Jason: 59:02

And I'm not gonna interrupt you or call you an idiot because that's just notwe don't do that, you know? And it's like, okay, I heard everything you said, but I'm only listening to a few people. It's like when it comes to business advice, man, do you own a business? That's not an end all be all. Not everything has to be an absolute.

Jason: 59:21

But if you're firing off business advice because you watch Shark Tank, I'm going to be the one that pays the price. Or the small business owner, I should say, is going to be the one that pays that price because you projected this concept as an absolute truth and I just lost $500 by signing up for something. So that would be the blanket all encompassingif I have to give anything to however many people hear this that I've never even met is to hear everybody out of kindness and opportunity but only listen to a select bit of information that comes across your plate because this can be overwhelming.

Sam: 59:54

Let's wrap it up with a couple quick ones. What do you do to prime yourself for the day?

Jason: 01:00:00

Man, it's there are things I can control. So I note my alarm clock. I I try to set on I have a coffee date with my buddy, Scott, a couple times a week. So we get up and go to the same Starbucks at 4:30 when they open. So if that day goes, I know my alarms clock is set for 341, which there's no real reason other than I know if I hit snooze, that gets me up at 3:50 on the dot because the snooze only lasts 9 minutes on an iPhone.

Sam: 01:00:24

If you're getting a 341, when do you go to bed?

Jason: 01:00:26

Oh, man. I'm 41, dude. I go to bed at 8:30, 9 o'clock now.

Sam: 01:00:29

Sometimes So you're getting, like, a solid 7, 8 hours a night.

Jason: 01:00:32

Yeah. I'm still going for it. Like, the the chapter of me, like, getting 2 hours, 4 hour, like, I had to button that. I got sick as all hell last year. So it's been a lot slower approach to staying alive now.

Jason: 01:00:43

So I've got my routine on when I I don't set an alarm Tuesday or Thursday or Sunday. So I just get up when I get up and that gives me a little bit of freedom, you know? But if we have coffee date, I set my alarm at a specific time. And if we don't have the mandate, then I still set my alarm at a very specific time because I like to come down here to my gym Monday, Wednesday, Friday for the 5:30 group. And these are the folks we've again, we've all aged together.

Jason: 01:01:05

Most of them have been here since the day we opened, if not prior, and it's just a great group of human beings. But on those days, my alarm is set for the same time every time, which is 4:31 because, again, in case I need to hit the snooze, I have to get up with a 0. More often than that, I'm up well before my phone, but, you know, I I stopped drinking a while ago. And so getting up early has always been kinda my jam. It's just so nice now without a hangover.

Jason: 01:01:27

It's actually enjoyable. But to actually execute, man, it's coffee, like, absolutely I don't mind giving up alcohol, but a world without coffee is one I don't wanna be in. And then I read. I try to really read every morning for at least 15 to 20 minutes of whatever is in. You know, right now, I'm on Jordan Peterson's new book, We Wrestle, You Who Wrestle With God, but pretty much almost always nonfiction, everything from military history to mindset and business practice, all that kind of stuff.

Jason: 01:01:55

So every morning starts with coffee and book time. The third thing, if we're looking for 3 options, is controlling the alarm clock is kind of athat's not really a thing, but the coffee, the book, and then honestly just trying to think. It's about 13 minutes to drive from my home to my gym. And that's one thing I've learned. It's only been probably about a year or 2 that I've been truly disciplined enough to stay and give myself 5, 10, 15 minutes to just dead silence think about anything.

Jason: 01:02:24

Because, you know, I in, you know, I'm not going to try and turn your podcast into like a therapy couch, but like for me, I got wrapped up in the provider side of things with the financial side of as long as I'm working and saving and investing the money, it's for the family, then I can justify missing everything. You know, whether it's kids games, you name it, you know, family parties get togethers. Like, it was out of control for a very long time. So for me to take anywhere from, like, 5 to 15 minutes to get to town where no emails, no music, no text, no phone calls, nothing. Granted, this is 5 something in the morning, so there's not a lot of people awake.

Jason: 01:02:59

But that's that's the thing that honestly has changed the most for me in the recent years. But taking 10 or 15 minutes to do nothing but just have like a in a solo think tank, that's been that's been the biggest change for me of like realizing how bad I was fucking up all these opportunities because I was just so high strung with this legitimate addiction to like a high performance lifestyle of like how many flights can I take in a month? How many hours have I put in? How little sleep did I get? Like, I had 4 white monsters today.

Jason: 01:03:28

Like, I'm gonna live forever because you only had 2. Like, it it really got for me personally, it really got out of control. There's the coffee in the book and just that quiet reflection time there.

Sam: 01:03:38

Some of the most hardcore guys I know are dedicated readers, especially in the morning. So, I mean, what what are, like, a a couple books that that have changed your life along the way?

Jason: 01:03:48

We we've never met. And like I said, I'm not drinking anymore, but I'll buy I'll still buy you a beer or a coffee or something. But I don't wanna get my ass beat, but the extreme ownership, dude, I don't care what anyone says. I dig the Jocko stuff, man. Like, I got some buddies that are from your lineage who bust my balls a little bit.

Jason: 01:04:06

But man, a dude introduced me to that stuff right when my son was born. And the only way to get him to sleep was driving around in my man van with him in the car seat. I must have listened to the first 50 episodes of his podcast just driving McDonald's to McDonald's McDonald's, slugging diet coach, listening to the podcast, and then, you know, read the book. Everything just clicked. It was just right place, right time, right chapter of my life that was like that that or that offered that extreme ownership offered a lot of organization, the stuff that I had going on in my head that really didn't make a lot of sense.

Jason: 01:04:39

And I was like, man, this this is just a wonderful thing for that moment in time. It's it's kind of run its course. I still love the podcast. I love the books. I've got nothing negative to say.

Jason: 01:04:47

When I met Jocko, the dude was kind, world class, and 100% transparent. Like what you see is what you get, you know? So it was like just an excellent chapter in my life. But that book, Extreme Ownership and then a couple of follow on ones, I can't recommend them enough to any grown and women too. But as far as grown men go or young men trying to become adults or dads or anything like that, I think there's tremendous value in there.

Jason: 01:05:10

The book we mentioned earlier, The Mission to Men and Me, I think is absolutely world class when it comes to business. A buddy of mine, Curtis, gave me a book last year called Unreasonable Hospitality, which is kind of silly, but it's about a restaurant group and a member of it who became the CEO of a huge, you know, thing, but it's 3 Michelin Star restaurant in New York to Smashburger to Vegas, all this crazy stuff. But ultimately, the book, they they couldn't figure out how to get their 3rd Michelin Star up in New York until they focused on everything but the food because they couldn't get any better. So they focused on the customer experience, the culture, hospitality, and everything that goes with it, and it's really about going above and beyond. And that's what nudged them towards the 3rd Michelin star.

Jason: 01:05:55

And then dude got burned out and ultimately started Smashburger, which is, like, the best thing in any airport ever. But for business, I think that's world class. And then, honestly, I'm I'm hoping without being a cornball about it, I really hope that someday the Bible becomes a huge part of that list for me, working on it, just not there yet. And the one I read last year that had the biggest impact on me as far as just, like, not necessarily political thinking, like, I think what I think, but there's a book called The Coddling of the American Mind. That I would say in the last 3 to 4 months, that's probably been the biggest, like, jaw dropper of a book.

Jason: 01:06:34

But hearing the thought process of someone self critiquing their own group of shortcomings and and kind of interpreting how things have kind of gotten as crazy as they've gotten. It wasI love that book because it was written by a dude who doesn't think like I do politically, and everything is just everything is assessed and communicated purely objectively, good, bad, and everything in between. And I just thought it was a really good book with as supercharged as the country is right now on just having to hate everything or blindly follow everything. And I was like, man, this dude is justwhatever he drank that morning, it just makes sense to me when he wrote that book. So I would say that list has been absolutely huge.

Jason: 01:07:20

And then obviously, the West Side Barbell book of methods is, for professional reasons, I think that's the best strength training book any human being could ever have.

Sam: 01:07:27

Alright. Gus, this was awesome. How can people find you and follow your work?

Jason: 01:07:32

I gratefully let me come on your podcast, man. It's been a neat experience. As far as finding me, if I'm home I'm either at my house and if I'm not there, I'm at my gym, which is just in Chesterton, Indiana 1050 Broadway. Like, if you're ever in the area, everyone's welcome to train here. If I just got home from a trip, we charge you your drop in fee.

Jason: 01:07:52

If we're in a good mood, probably gonna tell you to keep it or just grab a coffee for me or something on the way. But we're always in the gym here in Chesterton. Online, I have my personal Instagram profile, but I don't I don't check it a whole lot, which is just jj.p.guss. And then our company profile is conjugate.tactical for Instagram. I check that one regularly and a couple of other people do.

Jason: 01:08:16

So if anyone sends anything but there's a couple of different people that look at that account, so be careful. Don't don't send anything too crazy because it's not just me reading it. And then my email is just jason.gussick@westsidehyphenbarbell.com. But our role in the universe is try to help people with their strength training. So anything, we field a lot of questions every week, so we just try to always tell people, like, if we can help you, we always will.

Jason: 01:08:40

And if we ever can't, man, just out of respect, not arrogance, we're just gonna tell you no because we can't do what's needed and this stuff is too important. And our, you know, our our pathway and the the tribes we were part of, that we can't get in the business of screwing people around for a few bucks or because our ego is forcing us to say yes to things when we really don't know what we're doing. So that that would be the list right there as far as how to get a hold of me or us on the team because there's a lot of guys and gals that are they're really carrying carrying the weight of this whole conjugate tactical thing and and growing it into something far beyond what I ever could. It's it's a pretty neat again, it wasn't part of the plan, but it's a pretty neat thing of what's been happening over the last couple of years.

Sam: 01:09:19

Gus, really appreciate your time, bro.

Jason: 01:09:20

Oh, dude. Thank you so much, man.

Sam: 01:09:22

That's it for this episode. If you wanna check out more from the podcast, head to zero eyes.com/nobell, where you can see show notes, read more about our guests, and suggest guests or topics of your own. Until next time, stay in the fight. Don't ring the bell.