Horse Racing + Video Games: A Duality Of Duty
This is the Nobel podcast where we talk about how to optimize your technology, life, and mind. We're joined by special operations veterans, entrepreneurs, investors, and others who have overcome difficulty to make it to the top of their craft by staying in the fight. Welcome to the Nobel podcast hosted by myself, Sam Alaimo, and Rob Huberty. We're joined by Adam Nelson, former army veteran and entrepreneur. Adam, welcome.
Speaker 2:Glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Let's start from the beginning. Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I was born in Philadelphia. I was raised originally in Honey Brook, Pennsylvania. It's about now West Of Philadelphia. And then my parents got divorced when I was really young and pretty much grew up in, like, Alwarsen, Pennsylvania, around the same general area.
Speaker 2:My mom had a horse farm, so I spent a lot of time on a farm out there riding horses, taking care of horses. And, when I was 18 years old, I decided to join the army.
Speaker 1:Let's stick with the horse farm. So, what what kind of farm was it?
Speaker 2:So, my mom did endurance racing, which is cross country horse racing. Oh, yeah. That was her main hobby. That was her big her big passion. So, we had a farm in Honey Brook, not that big, maybe three eight three, four acres, but had plenty of pasture for horses.
Speaker 2:And so, all through my younger years, you know, that was her that was her obsession, really. And so, I was part of helping maintain the stalls, helping break the horses in, feed the horses. If we had to keep the horses fit, I'd help ride the horses, and then I would obviously go with her on these trips to these competitions all across the country. It's kind of a niche sport. A lot of people don't know about it, but it's huge in The Middle East.
Speaker 2:And, actually, the Olympics for cross country horse racing, endurance racing, is in The Middle East almost exclusively because Arab horses are the best endurance horses. That's why they are always used for racing. They're smaller, but they're better for long distance, and so that's why that's why they have the Olympics that out there. But, yes, that's what my mom did, and I helped helped out with that.
Speaker 1:The Arabians are great. They actually Vigo Mortensen movie. What was that called? That that was about these long distance endurance races.
Speaker 3:Oh, about?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what that was about. Phenomenal horses. They're incredible.
Speaker 1:Did you get to race at all?
Speaker 2:I did a couple races when I was, like, 13, 14 years old, really, like, short ones. I think they're usually 25, 50, hundred mile races. I did 20 a couple 25 miles.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:I just it just wasn't my thing. Obviously, it's, you know, my mom's thing, so I just kinda did it. But it was you know, looking back, I definitely appreciate that now because horses are still my favorite animals. I love horses, beautiful animals. They're hard to take care of, but if if you're, again, if you're passionate about it, it's definitely worth it.
Speaker 2:It's very rewarding. But, yeah, it was a cool experience, and I'm glad I was able to be exposed to that.
Speaker 3:So you're in the middle of horse, you know, the horse culture, which is very weird. I've I now know a lot of people who race horses in in my life at, like, the Olympic level and stuff like that I've worked with. So I've I've discovered a lot about it. Did you realize that was special? Did you realize that other people don't typically grow up in that when you were in that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. Definitely. I the first thing I noticed as a kid was I was the only young boy around a lot of women. It's a very female dominated sport.
Speaker 2:Obviously, now and then, I would meet other kids my age, but it was very it was very infrequent. So I think probably around the age of 10, 11, I realized how, you know, not many kids are exposed to this. You know? And I and and back then, I just I just kinda went along with it. That's just how I was as a kid.
Speaker 2:I was very laissez faire. I just just kind of lived life one day at a time. But now, as an adult, I look back, and and and I wouldn't do that now. It's not it's not something I'm passionate about, but I'm I deeply appreciate the opportunity to be, exposed to that
Speaker 1:commonality with military coming from more of a backwoods, rural ish kind of background. Growing up, what was it like there as a kid? There's a typical bonfire scene.
Speaker 2:I mean, so it was kind of weird. So my dad lived after my parents split, my dad lived in a in a development. So he had, you know, roll homes, one house up to another. That's kinda where he grew up because he grew up in Collingdale. So he was used to that as the house he bought.
Speaker 2:So I would go back and forth between my parents' houses every week. And so my dad's house was the tech house. That's where I got into video games, computers, video cameras, TVs, because my dad was into that stuff. So I kinda followed in his footsteps. But at my mom's house, completely different story.
Speaker 2:Out in the middle of nowhere, horse farm, there's no other kids around. I had to make fun for myself. So talking about bonfires, during the summer, what I would do is I would walk the horse pasture because most of the our horse pastures used to be woods that we cleared out to turn the horse pasture. So I'd walk the horse pasture, and I'd pick up every stick and log that I could find, and I would build fires just to get rid of it because I just you know, it was just something to do. So I kept myself busy.
Speaker 2:And that that is what, you know, made me fall in love with the outdoors. I've always loved the outdoors, but when I was forced to be in it and and keep myself occupied on long summer days with nothing else I can do, you know, I had no Internet back then, all that kind of stuff. I needed to do something. I just walked around the horses, and I kept the pasture clean and built fires. And so so I love being out in nature, which is another reason why I was attracted to the army when I was investigating what branch I wanted to serve because that's kinda how they market themselves.
Speaker 2:You know, you're out in the woods. You're out in nature. You're kinda rugged. And I was like, well, I'm used to that. I've done that before.
Speaker 2:That's not anything new to me. But when I was at my dad's house, it was gaming. It was friends. It was playing hockey out in the street. It was that that duality there, which I thought was interesting.
Speaker 2:So that was, like, my life growing up all the way until 18 when I decided to enlist.
Speaker 1:I really dig that balance. So you got the endurance racing in the woods, the the the rural. You got the tech kind of, I don't know, more common upbringing, I suppose you could say, for the middle class. Does that kinda ground you even today when you think about you get a little deep in the computer world? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like you could just go for a walk and automatically decompress given the way
Speaker 2:you grew up? Yeah. I think what it's done because of my affinity towards electronics and technology and my love for those things is that it's made me appreciate the outdoors even more. Mhmm. Because you can get lost in technology.
Speaker 2:You can get lost in Internet now. I think a lot of people don't realize that that even if you are fully aware of what technology is doing to you, it's it's affecting you in ways that you're not aware of. And you could you know, that that's why people say doomscrolling. You just go through TikTok or or your whatever, Instagram, YouTube, and a half hour goes by, and, like, wow. I've literally just sat here for a half hour and didn't do anything except for a look for videos that I don't remember anymore.
Speaker 2:So so I try to keep myself, I guess, grounded in the sense that when I am spending too much with technology, I gotta get up and go outside. I gotta go for a walk. That's why I bought a sailboat because I wanted to do something on the weekends that wasn't sitting in front of a computer. If I gotta do that every day for work already, which is my choice, I wanna have something on the weekends I can do that gets me outside, gets me in nature. And and that's why and, you know, we haven't talked about the boat, but it's why I bought the sailboat.
Speaker 2:And I love the sailboat because it's an adventure every single time, and it helps me just get away from the tech world a little bit.
Speaker 1:We'll get sailing is one of the most therapeutic things I know of, so we'll talk about that
Speaker 3:for a bit.
Speaker 1:But let's say you brought up the army. So what was the moment I guess, the youngest age you remember, you were a soldier?
Speaker 2:Okay. So for me, I always had an affinity towards the military. My grandfather served in World War two. He was one of the guys first on Beach, Omaha on d day. He survived.
Speaker 2:He died in, like, '81. I was born in '80. And never got to meet him. Right? You know, based on what my dad has told me, he wasn't the best father, but I can understand what what why he had issues after the war because of what they went through.
Speaker 2:Nonetheless, you know, once I learned about his service, once I talked to my grandmother who was alive all the way into her nineties and, told me a lot of the stories about him, I became I just became enthralled with that idea of serving and honor and sacrifice. I just think it's innate in a lot of men that that we have this call to adventure, call to action, call to serve. So, that's where it kind of got started as a kid. But, as I got older, once movies started coming out that depicted World War II and other wars, I was so attached to this idea of sacrifice and just being with your brothers and sisters and doing something that's bigger than yourself. I just fell in love with that idea.
Speaker 2:It's a big reason why I love the Lord of the Rings stories because they have that same fundamental story to them that that just, I think, resonates with everybody in a in a certain way. So, that's what where I fell in love with it. And then the reason why I decided to join the army was I was I had a job right after high school. Graduated high school. I got a job at an ACME distribution center.
Speaker 2:It's a grocery store chain. Doctor. Yeah. Doctor.
Speaker 1:And they
Speaker 2:have distribution center. And it was a good job. I was getting paid well, but I was just doing it because someone told me to apply. It wasn't because I wanted to do it. I just needed a job.
Speaker 2:And I worked there for about three months in the middle of the summer. I think this is the February. And three months in, I just I was I had a girlfriend. I lost my girlfriend at the time because I could never see her. All I couldn't see my friends anymore.
Speaker 2:I stopped playing sports. I didn't play video games anymore because all I did was sleep or go to work, and I did that for three months straight. And I said, this is not I'm not happy with this. I don't know what to do. And I remember I'm driving down the Turnpike to go to work, and on the other side of the Turnpike had been a national guard unit or something like that driving all their Humvees up the other side of the highway.
Speaker 2:And and in that moment, I said, I need to join the army. I need to join the military. And I and I instead of going to work, I took the first exit off the highway. I drove up to Redding, Pennsylvania. I walked right in the army recruitment center.
Speaker 2:I said, I I want a list right now. I wanna leave as soon as possible. When can I leave? And the guy's like, okay. Roger that.
Speaker 2:I took my test, and then I got my day to go to basic on my birthday. So 11/06/2007, my my nineteenth birthday, I went to basic training. That's how it all played out.
Speaker 3:There was another element of that that was a motivator for you in playing video games. Mhmm. I I remember we had a conversation about exactly this.
Speaker 2:We're
Speaker 3:driving on that same road in in Reading, Pennsylvania. Yep. You said this is where I learned that I wanted to go in the army, and it kinda blew me away. And you said something else that did to a video game in particular that you closed in.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah. So when I was a teenager, there was a the the first online multiplayer shooter game I ever played was a game for the PlayStation two called SOCOM. And it was a game based off US Navy SEALs. And it would had the first commercial they had for the first game is the best gaming commercial that has ever been made.
Speaker 2:It's my personal opinion. So there's these guys playing the game, and they're showing you footage of the game. And all these all these regular teenage kids are just getting beat. They're getting shot and killed. And they're like, man, what's going on?
Speaker 2:They're throwing their headsets down, throwing the controllers across the room. And then it switches to three Navy SEALs sitting around the TV, and they're and they're and they're camouflage, chuckling and laughing because they're beating everybody. It was the greatest advertisement I've ever seen for a video game. You can look it up on YouTube. But I but as soon as I saw it, I was like, I have to buy this game.
Speaker 2:But the other reason why I I was attracted to that game is because it was the first online multiplayer game that was sold with a headset. And the PlayStation two just came out with, like, its Internet adapter so you could plug it into Ethernet, fast speed Internet. All this stuff came together, and I just fell in love. And that was another reason why it just amplified my desire to be in the military because I was learning about the different kind of guns, the tactics, the different units. Even if they were made up for the game, it was still an educational experience.
Speaker 2:And that's that just added to my my love for the military and wanting to to get involved.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's funny that commercial, though. I think the reality is the opposite. I tried to play Call of Duty a few years ago, and, like, 11 year olds are completely wiped out. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Completely destroying you. Alright. So you got in the army. You're 19 years old. What did you just, like, what did you want to do?
Speaker 1:What was your rate or what did you call
Speaker 3:it in
Speaker 1:the army?
Speaker 2:So I wanted to backtrack a little bit just to to touch on the game. Originally, I wanted to become a seal. That was what I wanted to do. But then once I went and I actually learned because on that first game, they had real training footage of BUDS. And I watched that footage, and that was kind of intense.
Speaker 2:And I wasn't, like, an all star athlete growing up, and I didn't actually understand the requirements to become a SEAL. So when I went to the Navy's office and I asked about it, I mean, I pretty much got laughed on my face. Like, there's no way there's no way you're gonna get through it. So that I I I quickly backstepped from that idea. But that but I wanna say that because that was the first introduction of what would I do if I decided to join and being a Navy SEAL.
Speaker 2:But I because I was attracted to that prestige. Right? And that's what I you know, and and everything I learned through the game. But when I joined the army, I I took the the ASVAB test. I think that's what it's called.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I got a pretty mediocre score. It wasn't anything extraordinary, but it wasn't bad. So I pretty much had the pick of every job in the army for for the most part, and I really wanted to be a radio operator. And the reason why or at least I wanted to have some sort of connection to technology. The reason why is because I didn't just wanna be a grunt.
Speaker 2:Right? No no no shade thrown to the guys that do decide to do that. You know, we we every job is important, but I didn't want to just be shooting the gun. I wanted to have a job outside of that that gave me more purpose in any kind of situation. And I've always been more aligned with support roles, like supporting other people.
Speaker 2:I like supporting people, helping people in ways that they can't help themselves. And, that's where that job really shined for me. So, I asked for a radio operator job, and I eventually got assigned a job. I had to kind of fight with the guy for a little bit because he wanted me to do something else. But, I got a job, signal system support specialist, twenty five uniform.
Speaker 2:And so what real what was really great about that job is it also came along with going airborne. And I knew nothing about airborne. Even though I was really I was obsessed with World War two stuff, I didn't actually know a lot about airborne. So once I learned about that, I was like, yes. I I absolutely wanna do this.
Speaker 2:You know? And they told me I get paid more. So I said, yeah. That sounds great. And that was a big motivator for me.
Speaker 2:So I decided to I said I said yes to that, and and that's the job they gave me, and off I went.
Speaker 1:The the radio stuff's interesting. So did you the way I viewed it, because I was a radio guy initially in the navy, is it sort of like command eye view? It's a it's a bridge between the officer world and the enlisted world.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you get to see and work and talk and live with the ground pounders. Yeah. But you also get to work one on one with the officer and see the officer's perspective on what it's like on the battlefield.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:What, what was that like for you, that that kind of duality?
Speaker 2:So for me, I had a unique experience with with communications because just because of the unit I was assigned. So there's there's a lot here, and I wanna I wanna unpack a lot of this. There's a there's a another reason why I really wanted to be a radio operator, more so than just I wanted to have another job. When I was growing up, I was bullied a lot in high school. I I I had a lot of trouble communicating how I felt, right, how people made me feel.
Speaker 2:I had a hard time communicating. And so the other motivator was I want a job that forces people to talk to me so I can communicate so that I know so that I know people understand how I feel. It was more like a self defense mechanism, but I also wanted to make friends, make connections, be connected to people because I felt disconnected through my, you know, my my social interactions in high school. And so so that was part of the motivation there. But, actually, being the radio operator in the army, what I thought was interesting was how difficult it was in certain situations.
Speaker 2:Right? So, let's say you get attacked and you have to do a nine line med evac if someone gets hurt. Making sure that you say everything properly over the radio. Maybe in a combat situation, it's a little less it's a little more forgiving, but I I always real I always thought that the communications were much more fluid through the military, but it's not. It's more rigid.
Speaker 2:It's more structured. Like, you have to say it this way because there's a purpose behind it. And I thought that was interesting. And once I once I figured that out and I got that cadence, I was really I really loved that. And then once I got to a certain point, I was able to now train officers and people deploying out to the field how to use the radio and other types of technology, and that's where I got that first exposure of, you know, connecting with officers.
Speaker 2:And what I realized is officers do not know much more than unless the people do. If not, they know less. But I enjoyed that. And then being deployed, really, when you're deployed and you're you're if you're if you're in combat, if you're not in combat, I didn't really feel much of a difference between communicating with officers versus enlisted. It was it was like, hey.
Speaker 2:What's the mission? What's the objective? Let's just do that thing. And that's what I felt that experience was like. I mean, granted, I I wasn't exposed to as much combat as, say, some other people that were deployed at the same time, but I felt that, you know, I was I was proud of what I was doing.
Speaker 2:I was proud of how I communicated. I was proud of what I knew. I was proud of the education I gave to other soldiers in the military. And I it was it was it was the best job for me, and I'm and I'm so thankful that I picked it.
Speaker 1:How long are you in for? How many years?
Speaker 2:So I was active duty four years, and then I did two years reserve time.
Speaker 1:How many tours you get to do?
Speaker 2:Only once to Iraq in 02/2010.
Speaker 1:Iraq '2 thousand '10. So what was that like?
Speaker 2:So it was pretty it was pretty benign for the most part. I could talk about my mission because it's declassified, but we our mission was called Blue Steel. I need to back up here. So I was embedded into a psychological operations unit. During the time when I when I joined, the army's structure changed, and they said that every unit in the United States army must have a radio operator or some some IT related position.
Speaker 2:So I was assigned to a psychological operations unit at Fort Bragg, which, normally, they didn't have any radio operators. It was only PSIOP, thirty seven Fox, I think, is the MOS. That was the only people that were in those units. So I was the first commo guy to be in their unit. So I had control of all their equipment, all the training, everything.
Speaker 2:It was very it was very weird for a 19, 20 year old kid while I'm in. It was it was very uncomfortable. But, nonetheless, that's where I was assigned. And so when we deployed, I was a part of the psychological operations mission. I wasn't on a, I guess, a normal mission, whatever that is.
Speaker 2:And so our mission was called Blue Steel, and the purpose of our mission was that we had to manipulate the minds of people using the Internet in Iraq. That was that was fundamentally what the mission was. And the way we did that is that we were in the compound, and I forget the name of the compound, in Baghdad that held all the prisoners. Right? And so we had one we had one of Saddam Hussein's top generals and a few other civilian terrorists that we captured that were incredibly intelligent, and we turned them into informants for us to browse the Internet and find people posting about certain topics and try to persuade them against their their viewpoint or their, you know, whatever it may be, if it was inspired by their religion.
Speaker 1:The prisoners actually do that?
Speaker 2:I was in the room with them. We played volleyball every single day. That we were we lived with them in the compound. What I thought was the most interesting thing was so obviously, we had interpreters. Right?
Speaker 2:We had, like, four interpreters that worked with us. They also did the same thing that the prisoners did, is that I got to sit out in a you know, in in the sun with with one of the prisoners. They got to they got as long as they cooperated, they got whatever they want. They could eat whatever they want, smoke whatever they want, you know, just sitting outside, having a cigarette, talking about life like you're talking to a guy. I mean, this I'm sitting across a guy who's easily killed a dozen Americans without a shadow of a doubt, whether directly or indirectly, you know, someone who's % a bad person, and just sitting there talking about life like they're a normal person through through an interpreter and just having normal conversations.
Speaker 2:And I that is what I thought that was a a moment for me where I felt not only are people all over the world way more alike than they than they think they are, but you also what I also realized in that moment is that people have such a depth for for evil that it's almost hard to tell. Right? Unless unless they're doing it outwardly towards you, it's almost hard to tell how how evil people can be. But it's also I guess the the third part that I learned was people all over the world have so many different perspectives on the world, and they wholeheartedly believe in that, and there's not a word you can say to ever change your mind. You'll never change your mind.
Speaker 2:And that was a learning experience for me and and and a culture shock because I'm still you know, at that time, I was probably I was 20 going on 21, and I was it was just just an interesting interesting life. And then on the flip side of that, we play volleyball on a rocky court every single day with these guys, learning how to count in in Arabic or, you know, and they're and they're laughing at you and teasing you when you missed a missed a hit. And it's it's it's a very weird experience, especially when their families would come. Their families were allowed to come visit them as part of their reward of helping us, and and their families would come and bring food, and their kids would see them, their wives would see them. And it's just a weird dynamic where it's like these are bad people that wanted to, and probably still want to, kill Americans, and we let their families come in and hang out with them, and they bring us food, and it's the most delicious thing you've ever had in your life.
Speaker 2:It's just the weirdest. It's just the it's just looking back on it. In the moment, it was hard for me to really understand what was happening. But when I look back on it now, I say, wow. That's weird.
Speaker 2:That was such a weird experience. But it was cool. It was very cool, and I'm very thankful that I got to serve my country in that capacity.
Speaker 3:Were they any good at volleyball?
Speaker 2:They were very good at volleyball. They could they would never jump up and spike, but any kind of any, you know, any underarm hit, they were great. They could throw it up and serve it. They were so nonchalant. They just they moved with fluidity.
Speaker 2:It's it's crazy.
Speaker 1:But did they ever beat you in volleyball?
Speaker 2:Oh, hon all the time. They beat us all the time. Oh my god. All the time.
Speaker 3:Alright. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it was also we also had a rocky court, so it was it was difficult to play on it.
Speaker 1:When you were sitting across from them, you're 20 years old, so this is awesome to visualize, if you didn't know their background, would you just thought, wow, it's a kindly old, I recommend?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Probably. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And at the same time, he wanted to kill you.
Speaker 2:Oh, %. Like, if those guys had the option, they would have killed all this immediately.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what were the levers you guys would pull to get them to play your game online?
Speaker 2:The reward structure. Right? So just imagine training a dog. They get a treat. Every time we do something good, you get a treat.
Speaker 2:So these guys had these guys had their own room. They had game consoles. They had every movie they could want. They got visitation hours from their families. They got all of this because they would do what we asked them to do, whether it was, you know, they saw a post online and they had to they had to argue that point or they saw people communicating about an attack that was gonna happen somewhere in the country.
Speaker 2:Because the thing to keep in mind is that in Iraq, the only people that were using the Internet were the most wealthy in the in the in the country. So they were engaging with the top 1% of the country, and so they were interacting with them and and persuading them and and trying to put nuggets of information. And then if they if we uncovered some important intel, then we'd obviously you know, we'd we'd send that up the chain and get people out there. But, yeah, that that's why they agreed. And then the other thing is that they wouldn't die.
Speaker 2:They wouldn't get because if they were to get back out into the regular population of the country, they'd be killed immediately.
Speaker 3:So the question that I have next is do you know the ultimate fate of what happened to that person?
Speaker 2:So the one guy we named Zach, I don't I don't know his real name. And then the general I I know his name was was Saad, s a a d. The general is definitely dead, %. And our other guy, he got as soon he eventually negotiated his release after serving us for a few years. And as soon as he got released, the Iraqi police captured him, killed him.
Speaker 3:How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know enough about the politics of the country outside of The United States involvement to to really know why he was killed or why they were captured. The the the the general, understand. Right? I understand, you know, the atrocities he probably committed against the the civilian population of the country. I I guess in different, I don't really have a feeling one way or another.
Speaker 2:I feel it's it's weird, you know, because you you you live with that person for a year almost, and you get to know them pretty well. Get to know everything about their families, about their how they grew up, what kind of food they like, and, you know, they're gone now. It's it's a weird feeling. But I I I don't I'm not mad about it, nor am I sad about it. It's more of, like, there's nothing I could have done to make that outcome any different.
Speaker 2:I'm just privileged that I had the time to learn from those people while I was with them, really.
Speaker 3:So as you're looking at this, you're sitting across from somebody who ultimately was killed by Iraqis and not Americans. Right. And they were let go, but only to befall a different fate. Correct. We end up working with partner forces all the time, and and very often their version of justice and our version of justice were different.
Speaker 3:And a lot of it, we had to respect their version. Their respect for human life is not necessarily the same as ours. So we would see our partner force put people to death in sometimes brutal ways in front of us. And are we to judge them? Are we not to judge them?
Speaker 3:The answer is you could judge, but it's gonna happen anyway. It doesn't really matter. Right. Did any of that strike you as weird, or did you not interact with that enough to actually see those things before you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I didn't I didn't see any of that stuff, so I didn't really get that exposure to that to to really have to face it. I mean, I knew it was happening for sure because we talk about all the time. There were other prisoners over there prior to me getting in country that were that were let go, and they had, you know, the similar things happen to them.
Speaker 1:Did was there a positive impact from the work you did with these guys when they were clacking away on the keyboard working the Internet? Do you think there was a positive downstream impact in the work?
Speaker 2:I think so. I mean, it's hard for me to to know because I didn't see every impact. The only impact that I know that I specifically directly was involved in that made a a change was that there was an election. It wasn't like a top it wasn't a presidential election, probably, like, more like a mayor level election that we were trying to persuade the population to vote for a particular candidate. And so we we created as a team, we created a billboard that had a bunch of people sitting around a table that were all depicted as dogs, which is the highest the highest, insult you can give an Iraqis.
Speaker 2:Hey. You look like a dog. But our one candidate was at the table not looking like a dog, and we had the names all the way above the head. And so that went out, got put on a billboard in the middle of Baghdad, and that person ultimately won the election.
Speaker 1:Do you have a picture of this,
Speaker 2:I hope? I don't. I wish I did.
Speaker 1:Oh, man.
Speaker 2:I wish I did. But we we created the concept. We had the guys put stuff out on social media or on on the forums on the Internet at the time. And then, eventually, the billboard got made by some of the psychological operations unit. They put it up in Baghdad, and the guy won.
Speaker 1:Whatever the downstream impact, that's a win in my book. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, a few times when we went out past the wire and we went and talked to local tribes or local local towns, I do think that some of the the the counter arguments that people were making on the Internet to try to sway people away from, you know, the the just being aggressive, I think, definitely helped, but it was minimal. It it it wasn't like the whole country was changing overnight, but I do think that there were voices that were helping sway opinions.
Speaker 1:When you talk about going outside the wire, it's it's fun to to drill in on that. The third world, super unique place, especially the third world in a combat zone. Yep. So, like, can you describe just the general feeling you would have, the sense of awareness, the vivid details when you're outside the wire Yeah. Of your kit, your gun?
Speaker 1:You're probably with a partner for us. You have a mission to complete. What what what is the general sensation like when you do that?
Speaker 2:So for me, I only got to go out maybe handful of times. Right? Our our mission wasn't to go out a lot. But the few times I got to go, for me, I was just excited. I mean, I was young.
Speaker 2:I wanted to see combat. That's the whole reason why I joined. You know? Again, when stuff did happen, I said, oh, that was that nope. That's not what I want because it's it's completely changes.
Speaker 2:Everything that is
Speaker 3:is that I want someone to shoot at me, and I think every ring in the military can do that. And as soon as you actually get shot at it well, you start getting shot at a lot. You're like, wait. This isn't cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's not I don't know how
Speaker 2:to participate in this.
Speaker 1:It's not Call of Duty.
Speaker 2:It's not. No. They don't respawn. I was No. No respawn.
Speaker 2:There's no response. I was excited. Once once stuff did happen, for me, it was more of a sense of what do I have to do to keep the people around me safe? That was the only thought that I had. And I think that came from the the the excellent training that we go through in the military, and it's automatic.
Speaker 2:Right? You're you're like a machine in those moments. And that's all I could think of. I was like, what's my job? Do I gotta call someone on the radio?
Speaker 2:Do I gotta get behind a truck? Do I gotta shoot back? Like, what what do I have to do? But the feeling I got looking at the country and looking at the people was was just a sense of of emptiness. That that's how I felt.
Speaker 2:I felt empty. I said in my mind, I was like, why would anyone want to be here? Why would you want to live
Speaker 1:The third world stare says it all.
Speaker 2:You can
Speaker 1:see it in their eyes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like beyond hopelessness. Right? It's it's like you're stuck.
Speaker 1:Never having even known hope.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think for me, there was one instance that I had in my career. I just realized there was no compatibility, and and they weren't gonna step forward and really lead. It really came down to a a farmer in a low near nearby village whose son was kidnapped by the Taliban. Yeah. And we were like, let's do a hostage rescue.
Speaker 3:Like, this is there's nothing better than like, this is going to be the best thing ever. They took this kid, it was maybe 12 fold or something like that. They knew it would hurt him because it helped him farming. It was the only thing he did. We had a a plan.
Speaker 3:We we knew what happened. We knew where it was. And we're like, you can't just go do this without approval. So we went to the the father of the kid and we're just like, do you want us to go get him? Just say yes and we're gonna do a hostage rescue and we're gonna do it.
Speaker 3:We're gonna save him. We're gonna put our lives on the line and we're happy with this. Like, this is going to be awesome. This is a huge one for us. We get to go do a hostage rescue.
Speaker 3:And then he said, no. Don't do that. We're like, why? Is there something we don't know that something, you know, more leverage? He's like, oh, I have another kid.
Speaker 3:And I I mean, it's not a joke. It's just realizing, like, what they value. He's like, look, I have one kid. They took him. If I get him back, they're just gonna fight me and tear my my farm and just harass me forever.
Speaker 3:So, well, I'm upset. It's bad. I'll have another though. Wait. Look.
Speaker 3:I'll just get I'll I'll just have more children. Wow. And and you're just like, you know, for my kids, there's no amount of that. I would die and they're like, you harm a kid one of my kids and, like, I'll go to the death. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And they're like and as soon as I just like our culture and their culture, no one. Yeah. And I just knew that. And when you're you get to sit with people in those situations where you're like I remember, like, questioning him and we were incredulous.
Speaker 1:We were
Speaker 3:just like, this is exactly what we came here for. This is a just mission. This is exactly it. And they said, don't bother. I'll have another kid.
Speaker 3:Never gonna be aligned in that way. Yeah. And I we're losing a volleyball to that much as embarrassing. Yeah. No.
Speaker 1:What did you get into after that deployment? Did you have a a period after end of that deployment, and when did you separated?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I had a few years, like, a year left on active duty, and then and then I I chose the option to go home and then serve out the rest of my contract on reserve. So I did two years reserve up at Fort Dix, New Jersey while I lived in Philadelphia and started going to college.
Speaker 1:Wrap up your military. So, like, what what was the the best aspect of the military and then counter that with the worst aspect?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, the best thing about the military is where I am now. Right? I get to be part of the most inspirational, motivational, selfless human beings that have ever existed, all these people that chose to serve their country when they didn't have to. And that's a privilege that we have to be able to choose to serve, and all you need to know and and, yeah, there are there's bad people everywhere, of course. But for the most part, you know that if it really came down to it, that person would sacrifice themselves for you because that's what they would have done for their country, men and women they served with, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 2:So that's that's something that I think is the best thing is just having that connection is is phenomenal. And all the skills you learn and and leadership and and all that stuff, I think, matters, but just being part of that group of people is is awesome. The worst thing, I think, is that the military does train you in a certain way. You're not a commodity, but you are the result of a machine that you went through. So that instills certain elements in your personality and in your mindset that you almost can't shake away.
Speaker 2:Just, you know, not being able to adapt to certain types of situations that you only see in the military, but when you're in civilian life, it's not like that, and being able to switch your mind off and say, Oh, no. I can't treat people the same way as I treated women in the military because we're not all wearing ranks and we're all wearing a uniform. I think that's something that takes a long time to kind of work your way out of. Right? It's just saying, okay.
Speaker 2:I have to talk differently. I have to be different. You know? I can't I can't just be the same person I was because I'm just not in that environment anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and I think some people become almost addicted to that regimented lifestyle, and when they get out, they can't they can't transition back. And that's why, you know, that's why we talk about transition all the time as veterans. I think that's the worst thing about the military is that it because of the way you're trained to be an an ultimate fighter, it's very difficult to to to backtrack from that, to go back to normal everyday life with full mobility people.
Speaker 1:I've seen that the more people I talk to, there's a there's a delta. So, like, the people who actually don't do a full career, from what I've seen, have the harder transition. Yeah. Whereas those who've done over twenty years actually have an easier transition. Because at some point, they already disconnect themselves from the military, actually, the longer you're in.
Speaker 1:Whereas, you know, if you get out when you're 26 years old, your brain formulated in the military, and then you're leaving right as you're hitting your stride.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And it's a complete black and white situation. Let's talk about the transition, but I'm also curious why did you decide to get out?
Speaker 2:I mean, really, it was because I I was stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, which isn't TriNet. It's Fayetteville. Everyone calls it Vietnam. It was not the best place to live, and I didn't see myself living there. I knew that I could obviously go to be reassigned elsewhere, but I didn't wanna be away from family.
Speaker 2:My whole family is from Pennsylvania. I didn't wanna live across the country and never see them ever again. At least in North Carolina, I could drive home. And and and and back then, I was like, I wanna get married, have a family, and I wanna do that. I don't wanna have to deploy again and potentially leave people behind.
Speaker 2:So so I said, no. I'm I'm good. I've done my service. I'm proud of my service. I wanna go and move on with my life.
Speaker 2:And so that's why I decided to to finish up, do my two years reserve time, and move back home.
Speaker 1:Would you if someone were to ask you if they were to should they join the military, would you say yay or nay? What would your reason be?
Speaker 2:My answer is yes a % of the time. If anybody wants to serve their country, they should serve their country. I know there's a lot of issues right now, and there are a lot of things that are different in the culture of the military compared to when I was in, which really wasn't that long ago. But but there's nothing more rewarding than serving your country, wearing that uniform. I mean, just fundamentally the training and the discipline you get from being in the military, no matter which branch it is, you can't get that anywhere else.
Speaker 2:It's just it is the best leadership and discipline course, period. Right? Even if you wanna go and join the Coast Guard, no shade to the Coast Guard folks, but it still gives you structure. And a lot of things in our world don't have structure, and they don't give you a sense of purpose. And the military gives you a sense of purpose.
Speaker 2:You're living for the people left and right of you, and you're working for those people as well. And I think that's just so important in today's world where a lot of people feel hopeless and feel directionless and feel purposelessness. The military gives you all that, and it and it just and it gives you a family you'll never lose. And I think so that my answer is always, always yes. The only time the only thing that I'll say, the only caveat I have is I say, only join if you are absolutely certain.
Speaker 2:If you are not certain, don't do it because then you might regret that decision, and you shouldn't make a decision unless you're fully committed. When I joined the army, it was immediate. I said, I'm doing this. I wanna do this. This is the right choice, and thank goodness I did.
Speaker 2:But that's that's what I'd say people would ask me that.
Speaker 1:Let's do the transition. So would did you did you have a job lined up when you got out?
Speaker 2:Nope. I just wanted to go to college. So I didn't I my plan was I'm gonna get out and then move back to Philadelphia. I never lived in the city before, growing up on the farm. Right?
Speaker 2:I wanna live in the city. I wanna make friends. I wanna go to college. So I decided to go to Drexel University, then I moved to Philly to start going to school there. So I didn't have a job.
Speaker 1:So you did your four year undergrad after you got out? Yep. What was that like? You're obviously older for your class.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. So that was rough. That was that was another weird culture shock because I'm in class with 18 year olds. And I'm like, you're the age I was when I joined the army, and now I'm 24. And and it was it was very, very weird.
Speaker 2:I got over that pretty quick just because school's hard, and school's always been hard for me. I'm more of a worker doer. And so it was it was it was difficult, but but I made friends and went to parties and did all the normal college stuff. And once I got over that that culture shock of being back in the real world and being around all these young people, it was it was just business of normal. I just I had a I had a mission.
Speaker 2:Right? I just kinda used that mentality of, like, what's what's my next mission? I gotta graduate. I gotta get this degree, and I just focused on that. So
Speaker 1:And then at what point did you realize so did you found your company right after college or during college?
Speaker 2:So that was that was after college when I when I founded two companies. I founded Nelson IT Solutions, which is still technically open, but I don't I don't have any clients. And then I I founded Philly Esports, which was my gaming company. I did that after college. So pretty much how it worked was I went to Drexel for a few years, struggled a little bit, and then I decided to and then I did my co ops, which are are internship programs that this school offers, and realized I really liked working.
Speaker 2:Working is just really where my heart was. And then I decided that I was gonna transfer out of Drexel and graduate from another school. So So I I eventually transferred all of my stuff over to Penn State. During that time, I met I met a woman that worked at Wharton Business School, and and it was through, like, coed sports. And she's like and she learned about my background when I did.
Speaker 2:She's like, you'd be perfect to work at Wharton. And this is right when I was doing the the college transfer. I'm like, what are you talking about? And she she introduced me to an opportunity. I went in, did the interview, and I pretty much got hired right away as an IT support specialist.
Speaker 2:So at that point, I kinda paused my school stuff, started working full time at Wharton. I mean, that's where I really got to learn and and flex all my IT skills and really expand. So that that was the first real job I had besides my internships out of the military. And I worked there for, like, three and a half years, and then I finished up my undergraduate at Penn State doing my online courses. And then that brought me to the next the next opportunity was I worked for a nonprofit called Bunker Labs.
Speaker 2:Big shout out to Bunker Labs. Love them. What they do is they help veterans and their spouses start and grow businesses, so they're all entrepreneurial focused. And so when I got introduced to that organization, I fell in love with it. I was like, this is exactly the kind of place I wanna work for, wanna be a part of.
Speaker 2:And and I was kinda getting sick of the job at Wharton after a while. I wasn't I didn't see any growth there, so I wanted to do something new. And they I mean, just perfect timing. They had an open op the open opportunity. They said, hey.
Speaker 2:Do you wanna come work for us? And I said, yes. Absolutely. And I got a job there helping them, you know, run all their programming and getting people connected with with resources and absolutely just fell in love with that with that company. And, you know, obviously, that eventually led me here, but that's the next part of the story.
Speaker 2:But while working there, I I gained a mentor, and I kinda told him some of the stuff that I was really into. And he's like, you should you should pursue that. You should do that. And that's what kinda motivated me to start poking around my own businesses. And I started Nelson IT Solutions to be an IT consultant.
Speaker 2:Then, that didn't really pan out the way I wanted to, so I said, okay, I'm just going to go after something I love. I love video games. Video games is what got me to where I am now. It's what kick started the whole journey, so let's go back to that. And that's when I founded Phil Esports.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the kick in the nuts from Nelson IT, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 1:Was that, like, a humbling experience, or did you just say, ah, whatever?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It was it was my first time trying to just be my own entity without the without a support system.
Speaker 1:So you were super vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was very vulnerable. And people and I I obviously, when you're trying to make money, you're like, you're gonna say yes to anything. Like, if you're gonna pay me yes, of course, I'll do this for you. And then you get in there and realize how the problem is way more difficult, and it's way over your head, and you're like, how am I gonna do this?
Speaker 2:And so that's where that's where I kinda got kicked in about doing that. But but but it was a great experience because I learned how to start a business. I learned how to market. I learned how to find clients. I learned all the basic fundamentals doing that process, and so thankful for that.
Speaker 2:But it was
Speaker 1:What what are, like, two or three things you learned from Nelson IT that made you that much better for Philly Esports your second
Speaker 2:time around? So first and foremost is just marketing. How do you market whatever you're doing? Right? How do you create something that people recognize and, one, know exactly what you do and and also what it provides.
Speaker 2:Right? That's that's that's so important when you're when you're doing the company is is people have so much branding that you're looking at. Like, what is this? What does this mean? Like, what does this company even do?
Speaker 2:But and that's that was the first thing I learned. The second I learned is how to is how to negotiate. Right? One of the areas I feel that I'm weakest is negotiations, and and it was mostly because I did I wanted I wanted people to say yes, so I didn't wanna over negotiate because I wanted to get business. But then I realized that there has to be a line that you need to draw between, hey.
Speaker 2:I have value that I'm providing here. I need to market myself and and charge at that value. Because if I undercharge, it makes it almost makes me look like I'm not valuable. But if I charge too much, then no one will ever say yes because it's just too egregious. So those are the two things I learned right off the bat that's like, hey.
Speaker 2:You need to price yourself appropriately. Not too high, not too low, but definitely worth what you're worth, and then how to market your your company properly. Like, from day one, how do you market yourself?
Speaker 1:Did you think about quitting the entrepreneurial stuff after Nelson IT?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I was like, yeah. This isn't for me. And and the only reason why I didn't quit was because of my mentor who continued to encourage me.
Speaker 2:He's like, no. You got like, you have what you need to do this. Like, you you you can do this. Like, keep pushing forward with it. And so, you know, very thankful for him.
Speaker 3:How do you find a mentor? I I know who your mentor is. So the and and we met in the same thing. Did you know that he would do that? How do you search for a mentor?
Speaker 3:How do you gain that? How do you Yeah. How did you build that relationship?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's a great question. A lot of people don't know how to find mentors, and I think that I've been blessed in the sense that my mentors have come to me organically. I wasn't actively seeking them out. I just I'm I'm just attracted to certain kinds of people.
Speaker 2:And so through Bunker Labs, actually, I gained multiple mentors, and both had different perspectives, but they were both rooting me on and and telling me I could do it. It just kinda happened in the sense where I realized this person's smart. They're capable. I can tell they genuinely care about me as a person, and I care about them as a person. And so I continue that relationship and keep asking questions, and what do you think about this?
Speaker 2:Do you think this is a good idea? You know? And it just you just build that friendship with that person. For someone who's who's who's actively going out and looking for a mentor, I think you can do that. There's so many tools now to find people that are your mentor.
Speaker 2:But, really, I think it comes down to you need to be in an environment where you're with like minded people, whether that's an event or whether that's a hobby. And you need to find someone who has done something that you're looking to do and just start asking them questions and say, I'm really interested in this. I think this is important. And and just hear what they have to say. And I think through that dialogue, you can build a connection, and and someone will become that mentor to you organically.
Speaker 2:But I think it happens a lot of different ways for a lot of different people as well.
Speaker 1:You wanna jam on Philly Esports? Yeah. What are some what are some major lessons learned you had? Because you built that up. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You've had it successful. Yeah. And that's not easy to do. So you wanna talk about talk about the journey, talk about the struggles?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So Philly Esports was my main entrepreneurial focus, and the idea behind that was I love video games, a group of video games. I wanted to build a company that was around video games. I'm not a I'm not a developer, so I wasn't gonna make video games. So I figured, well, why don't why don't leverage my IT skills and leverage my event management skills and create a company that hosts events for people to come together to play, connect, build networks, and win some money by playing some tournaments.
Speaker 2:So I started Philly Esports, and the whole concept was just to run events. Get people together, you know, charge them an entry fee, charge them for food and drinks and clothing and memorabilia, and then have a prize pool, and then just kinda build it from there. That project took a couple I had to pivot at least twice. Right? Because that I started that in 2018.
Speaker 2:In 2020, COVID happened, which took a huge hit. Another reason why in 2018, that was the perfect time to start the company was that a lot of large gaming companies were investing into the competitive side of their games that they were developing. And there was a lot of games that existed prior to that had a long history of of positive competition. It was just a perfect storm of, like, there's a market for this. There's an environment for this.
Speaker 2:These big companies wouldn't be investing in this unless they saw a future there. So, I just saw me as the grassroots provider of these opportunities. The lessons learned outside of that was your your company's gonna pivot no matter what. Right? It's almost hard to start a company with a singular purpose that you're not gonna adjust over time.
Speaker 2:Originally, we started with all in person events, and then I had to pivot to only online events. And thank god we had the Internet to be able to do that during 2020. But what was difficult there is it's very hard to make money because now you're only relying on essentially sponsorships. And sponsors only care about eyeballs and care about interactions. And if you didn't if you didn't have enough, they weren't even gonna give you a dime.
Speaker 2:So you had to find other ways to make money, whether it was that bringing other companies into the event and having them, you know, be involved in some way, whether it was an interview or a commercial or something that was more personal than just doing a a marketing campaign, or it was finding people that wanted to pay you to run an event for them, like a corporate event or a team building event, or other esports organizations that needed a company like ours to run the event. So, there was a lot of pivoting there and trying to find ways to make money. And then, ultimately, you know, once COVID kinda died down and we can go back to in person, really, the driving force was educational, using video games for education. That was the real area that I started finding a lot of passion, a lot of a lot of success because video games have always had a negative stigma throughout all of history. It was just a weird for whatever reason, in the eighties and the nineties and early two thousands, all the major media were like, someone's playing this game, and it's gonna turn him into a serial killer and all this crazy stuff.
Speaker 2:Made no sense. Right? Like, kids play GTA, which is the most gruesome game you could play because of all the stuff you can do, but, like, none of those kids turned out to be serial killers. It's so weird. Once I started seeing this change in perspective of, like, hey.
Speaker 2:Video games can be used for good, I really wanted to pursue that and and make that into something special. So not only was I doing educational stuff, but I was also running a collegiate league because college eSports, you know, competitive gaming was getting really big. So I was hitting all at all these cylinders. Right? I had these in person and online events.
Speaker 2:I had all these educational events happening that schools and and things were paying for, and then I had a collegiate lead that college teams could come together and compete against each other. And these were all happening at the same time. And it was it was fantastic, but it's difficult. It's difficult to raise money. It's difficult to make enough money.
Speaker 2:It's difficult to hire people full time. And I think the biggest lesson learned that I took from that whole experience was that you have to start with sales. Mhmm. You can't do anything without sales. You can't do anything without sales.
Speaker 2:You have to have people out there stopping the street, looking for people. They're gonna give you money. Period. End of story. If you don't have that, you're not gonna be able to make enough money to sustain yourself.
Speaker 2:Some people have done it other ways, and it's been successful. But, fundamentally, you have you have to get out there and sell. And I'm not a salesman. That's just not my skill set. So that's the biggest lesson I learned.
Speaker 2:And and pretty much why, ultimately, I decided to step away was because I went too far in one direction, and I couldn't rebuild the infrastructure to get it going in the direction it needed to go to be self sustaining without me constantly putting all my effort into it. But it was one of the most rewarding experiences, and I'm thankful for everything I was able to do there, All the people I got to meet, the company I was able to lead, all the people I got to hire, it was absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 3:You said something that I actually disagree with. You said, I'm not good at sales. And this is a weird thing, and we just had another conversation about this recently. You sold a lot. You did.
Speaker 3:Now maybe it wasn't as successful as you wanted. What made you successful at sales the times that you're able to sell that people were to give you money for your product? What did you do differently? What do you think a salesman's supposed to be? What were you?
Speaker 3:Right. What would you do next time?
Speaker 2:Well, so I think one of the the the things I've been blessed with is I'm a very passionate person. Right? If I'm talking about something I love or or I'm really emotionally charged, I'm I'm very passionate. So when I when I did get on a call with someone that I wanted to to buy our product, buy our services, I think what swayed those people was my passion and commitment to give them what what they were looking for and say, hey. We're gonna do this.
Speaker 2:We're gonna make it work. Right? I think a lot of entrepreneurs do that at the beginning. They're they pretty much they they they make magic happen to to get the sale or to get the product completed for the for whoever you're working with. And I think that's what allowed me to make those sales is I was passionate about it.
Speaker 2:And and what's really cool about gaming is that if someone doesn't like video games, they're really not gonna be involved in it. They're really not. It's just one of those those hobbies that people aren't gonna be involved. They're not they don't like it. So when you so when I talk to a lot of people that were looking for some type of service or maybe they weren't looking for the service, but they were in the same the right position, they were already in line with my passion.
Speaker 2:And they and I think that that passion was it was infectious, and they and they were like, okay. Yeah. I'll work with you. I think that was that was important. The other thing that I did on a lot of my calls is I I told them, I was like, listen.
Speaker 2:We're gonna be transparent. We have integrity. Again, something I pulled from the military. We're not gonna say one thing and do another. We're gonna give you exactly what we say.
Speaker 2:And if you don't like it, then I then I will fix it. Period. End of story. And I and I was very adamant about that because I think in sales, a lot of people can be shady and and promise things that aren't true. But I had a small team, and most of the work was done by me, so I wasn't gonna do that.
Speaker 2:And I wanted integrity. I wanted my brand to have integrity. If you work with Adam at Philly Esports, you're gonna get exactly what you you he says you're gonna get. You're gonna get that. And that's what I think those two things combined, my passion and and my honesty and transparency was what allowed those people to say yes to me at the beginning.
Speaker 2:And then, ultimately, as the company grew, I I we ran amazing events, and we created amazing products. And I think once people saw the final product, they're like, wow. This is impressive for for what you're doing, and I think that helped as well.
Speaker 3:So you're saying that the key to selling in your eyes was passion and integrity.
Speaker 2:Yes. Do
Speaker 3:you think if you were to do this again in the future, you would still be able to sell using those two same things? Absolutely. Then what would make some someone a better salesman if you don't think that you were because I think you actually were.
Speaker 2:I think what I was missing was just the ability to kinda see forward into the conversation to be able to say what you know the client needs to hear so that you can drive them towards the ultimate decision. And I and I also think that when it came to negotiating, I was more lenient on negotiating, which mean I would get less from the end goal. And and I think that if I had better negotiating skills and I had more of that innate ability to kinda see what was coming next in the conversation, I I would've been able to close bigger deals and more more consistent deals.
Speaker 3:If you would've said what is the quality of a good salesman before you had the experience of actually selling and trying to sell yourself, what would you is there a disparity between what you thought a salesman was and what it really is?
Speaker 2:A little bit. I I think I would've I would've said honesty because you want like, for me as an individual, I wanna buy a product from someone that I believe is telling me the truth and isn't trying to just get my money for the sake of getting my money. Obviously, yes. They have a they're trying to make money to run the business, but I wanna buy something that the person I'm buying it from believes in and and I've seen the proof of. I've realized just through talking to a lot of different business owners and going through my own entrepreneurial journey is that a lot of people lie when they sell just to close the deal, and I don't think that's right.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's what
Speaker 3:you should do. I had a perception that salespeople were, like, slimy and would just say the right words. And what I have found out of similar passion and honesty and, like, educating, and if you do that, you're it's not even persuading. It's sales to me is not persuading. It's educating and being passionate about it and being honest.
Speaker 3:If you I would have thought it's a some a persuasive person, and I've not I've not actually found that to be true. Right.
Speaker 1:Kicking your day off, do you have a routine, a morning ritual? Yeah.
Speaker 2:What
Speaker 1:do you do to get ready?
Speaker 2:So when it's nice out, what I try to do is I get up, you know, brush my teeth through all that kind of stuff, and I try to go outside without shoes on and just stand in my grass and just look at the sun. I I do that. I think it's silly, but I think it actually makes you Grounding. Yeah. Grounding.
Speaker 2:I think it makes you feel better. And I think just having that natural light versus the lights in your house just help you wake up more effectively. I don't really have much of a routine after that. It's just really kinda eating breakfast and getting out the door.
Speaker 1:Are you a coffee connoisseur?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm a coffee guy. Yeah. I like coffee.
Speaker 1:What are you rocking some La Colome? What do we
Speaker 2:La Colome. Yeah. Thanks to Rob. He got me on La Colome. That's usually where I drink at home.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, my my my only ritual is to is to get outside and be in the sun because I just feel like that gives you a positive energy where there's a lot of stuff that can give you negative energy at the end of the day and kinda set you off on the wrong path, and I try to try to avoid that.
Speaker 1:So you got a super high intensity job. What do you do at the end of the day to pivot away from that and kinda shut it all off and recenter?
Speaker 2:Drink a lot of alcohol. No. I'd Quick answer. No. No.
Speaker 2:No. No. I'm just I'm teasing. One of my big ways of of dialing back is I pray. So I pray every night.
Speaker 1:Is it an afternoon practice or a morning practice?
Speaker 2:I do it I do it in the afternoon.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:And the reason why is because the day fills up with things that make me angry and make me frustrated and make me stressed. And so when I pray, I can pray on those things. In the morning, when I pray and people all have their own ways of doing it, and there's no wrong or right way to do it. But I like to pray and and and ask for the ability to recognize these things that make me feel negative and and find pathways through them that are beneficial and not detrimental to myself or the people I lead. And that's why I pray in the afternoon.
Speaker 2:So I do that on my ride home, and that's, like, my destresser because, you know, that's that's what I do. I give all that negative energy up to God and say, hey. You know, this is how I'm feeling. This is what made me feel this way, and, you know, show me the path to to be a better person next time so I can I can be the best leader I can be with the people, you know, all around me? So that's that's what I do to help me.
Speaker 2:And then going home to see the lady is always nice too.
Speaker 1:Probably keeps you calm in the Philly rush hour traffic as well at a time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Definitely.
Speaker 1:What about let's let's jam on sailing real quick. So that's an expensive hobby. You have to care for the boat. Yes. It sucks up a lot of time and personal investment.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But people are still obsessed with it. Yeah. I love sailing. So, like, what is it that makes you do it anyway?
Speaker 3:Boat is an acronym that means bail out another thousand.
Speaker 1:That's right. Or That's right.
Speaker 3:Or it's defined as a hole in the ocean that you throw money. Right.
Speaker 1:But you picked sailing too and not motors. So, like, what is it about sailing that you love?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So talking about mentors, one of my mentors, Dan Hughes, shout out to Dan. He was the he was the first person to ever take me out on a sailboat. And I've been on motorboats and all that kind of stuff, but never sailboat. And the moment that I fell in love with sailing was the moment when the first time we went out, we took we pulled the sails up and you turn the motor off.
Speaker 2:The motor goes off, and then you're just on the water. And you're moving through the water because the wind's pushing you, and you just hear the water lapping up against the side of the boat, and you go, oh, I get it. I get it. And it and it just takes a millisecond. You're like, I get it.
Speaker 2:And I fell in love with it instantly then.
Speaker 1:Almost can't put it into words
Speaker 2:because it
Speaker 1:feels so natural in
Speaker 2:nature. Yeah. And people on the Internet always make jokes about, oh, how did, you know, how did people sail across the ocean that, you know, hundreds of years ago on these huge ships? It's because it's they they were in love with it. And it's also the adventure.
Speaker 2:And every time you're on a boat, it's an adventure. But it's it's a great de stressor. It's something I love doing. It's something I can share with people, bring my family in front of out.
Speaker 3:You always bring the team out.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:You regularly take people out of the boat and you share it.
Speaker 2:Yep. Yep. Why? I think being out in the water and there's no there's no cell phones, there's no cellular signal, there's no nothing. You're just on the boat with the water, with the wind.
Speaker 2:It it forces people to communicate. Mhmm. And it just gives people a very calming area to just be themselves and just talk. And I think that's something that we don't really have a lot in the everyday hustle and bustle. But being out in the boat in the middle of a big body of water, no cell no cell phone, no computers, no nothing, it's just a chance that you can communicate honestly like human beings, and that's something I I cherish.
Speaker 2:And, again, I I picked that that comes from Dan and the way he leads his his tribe of people. I wanna I wanna emulate that and do it myself as as I grow older and I become mentors to younger people. I wanna continue to do that. So it's very special to me, and and it's something I I love doing.
Speaker 1:What about what's the make and model? How many feet is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I just I have a I'm an old girl. So I have a 1984 Hunter 31. Alright. She's she's beautiful.
Speaker 2:And I named her Secret Fire. And, Sam, you know why why I named her Secret Fire. But for those who don't know, that comes from Lord of the Rings when Gandalf is fighting the Balrog. In
Speaker 1:the Moors Of Moria.
Speaker 2:Yep. He says, I am a servant of the Secret Fire. And what that means is that he's essentially saying, I'm I'm a servant of God. I'm a servant of the the power that that created all things. And as someone, you know, someone who's religious, I I I resonate with that.
Speaker 2:So that's why she's secret fire.
Speaker 1:So I'm not gonna ask you who your favorite character is because I already know because it's my favorite character. So why is Gandalf your favorite character?
Speaker 2:I mean, Gandalf represents everything that's good in the story, and he he is the anchor. And and the thing that I think is most important about Gandalf is that he's essentially he's a demigod. Right? He's a he's a he's an angel in in human form. He could He could speak anything he wants into existence.
Speaker 2:That's the power they have. But, you know, Iru, God, actual God, told them, Hey, when you go into Middle Earth, you don't like, your directive is to help them. You can't actually change anything. You can just help them. And so, he does everything in his power to do that within that directive of not actually changing the world around him.
Speaker 2:Right? The most he does is break the bridge, right, and all that. So, that's why it's a representation of of what of what faith is in real life. Right? What faith is is that God is never going to actually fix things for you.
Speaker 2:He's never gonna come down and change something for you. He's not gonna change someone's mind. He's always gonna give you the path to take to get the result that you want. Right? If you're angry, he's gonna provide the opportunities for you to calm yourself down.
Speaker 2:If you're sad, he's gonna provide you the opportunities to find ways to, you know, get rid of that sadness, whether it's through therapy or friends or family or whatever. That's what the power of God does, and and that's what I think Gandalf represents and and, at least, my interpretation of it. That's why, for sure, he's my favorite character.
Speaker 3:So I think it's interesting. We're all Lord of the Ring nerds, and, you know, I read them far before the movies ever came out. And one thing I think the movies didn't do, it's for as great as they are. The thing to me that's the most important in the Lord of the Rings was eating. And they focus so much on it.
Speaker 3:And and I think it's beautiful because during the whole thing is, like, we're gonna die. I'm afraid of everything. I don't wanna go on this journey. That's why, you know, you're supposed to protect this ring and destroy it and its ultimate power. And you don't wanna be on the journey.
Speaker 3:You don't want the power, and that's why you get it. Yeah. You have to do it. You're the leader that is responsible enough to be like, I don't want this at all. And every time that they're in a moment, there's just so many they eat so much in it.
Speaker 3:And, you know, they've been like, what about second breakfast elevenses? You know, all of that stuff. It's great, but it's a moment to decompress and to be with each other. And I I honestly, like, no one focuses on that, but that's my favorite part. That's the best of, like, that moment that you spend with each other.
Speaker 3:And I think that a lot of the people getting out of the military, that's the thing they miss the most. It's not the adventure. It's the other people. But it's the the camaraderie and it's it's shown through, like, the needles and eating in those books. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Camaraderie for sure.
Speaker 1:That's a deep world. And, like, the the Gandalf piece, like Sauron is the the evil equivalent of Gandalf. He was the same stature in
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yep.
Speaker 1:In the higher world. Yep. And then Saruman was the middle ground, so you got to see the full spectrum of, I'm gonna give you this power. I'm gonna make you an old man so you don't appear intimidating. It's up to you to use it or or abuse it.
Speaker 1:So what's your favorite aspect of the middle middle earth universe?
Speaker 2:My favorite aspect?
Speaker 1:Like, what's your favorite I don't wanna say scene, but from the book, I guess, what's the favorite section? What's the what's the thing that resonates the most?
Speaker 2:At the end of the third book, all of the hobbits go back to their home. Right? And they find that Sauron because Sauron doesn't actually die the way that he dies in the movie. He dies at the end of the book. And so they have a battle.
Speaker 2:They the all the hobbits come back, and they fight these group of men that Sauron is.
Speaker 1:So while they were away, Saruman and the orcs took over the Shire.
Speaker 2:So for those
Speaker 1:who only seen the movie. Yeah. And when the hobbits got back with their armor and their swords, they had to retake the Shire.
Speaker 2:They had to retake the Shire. Right. Because because Saruman was under the guise of Sharkey. Right? That was his nickname.
Speaker 2:And he destroyed the Shire. Like, all everything was was burned down, and so they they had to fight these goons. And the the reason why that's one of my favorite moments in the story isn't because of the fight or anything. It's because when they when all the hobbits left, they wanted just like what you said, Rob, they wanted nothing to do with the journey. They they loved their home.
Speaker 2:They were simple. When they come back, they're battle hardened veterans. Battle hardened veterans. They've all seen trauma. They've lost people.
Speaker 2:They've had to kill orcs or whatever, defend themselves against them. They've seen horrible stuff, right, especially Sam and Frodo. And this is so beneath them. This is such an easy thing for them to do because of what they've been through. They easily overcome this.
Speaker 2:When go back how many years before their journey, they would have all been scared running away from this. And I just reread this section of the book because when I read when I get to the end of the books, I get sad because the journey's over. It really it really because I love the story so much. But I love this part because it reminds me of my military journey. When it's like when you leave, you're this young, wet behind the ears kid, and you don't really know what you're gonna get into, and then you serve your country, you get into all this crazy crap, and then you come back and, like, little things that used to bother you.
Speaker 2:Like, this is stupid. Why does this matter? Like, I have way more important things to worry about. Right? Like, I have friends that are gone.
Speaker 2:I've been shot at. I've been blown up. Some some guys are missing limbs. Like, who cares about like, this doesn't matter. Who cares?
Speaker 2:You democrat or who cares? Let's just let's just live life and, like, be outside
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And have a fire, and let's go on the boat. And let's, like, you know, like, that's what matters. And that's that's what that part of the story reminds me of is just you like, the things that used to bother you after you've been through all of this experience, you come back saying, I can't handle this. This is nothing. This is nothing.
Speaker 2:I'll take care of this. No problem. Afterthought. And you you you focus on things that that matter more, like your your family, your friends, moments that you're not gonna forget, moments that you only have for a moment. I'd say that's probably the part of the book or part of the because not movies, part of the book that that matters the most.
Speaker 2:But there's so many moments I could sit here for an hour and talk about all the moments I that I love.
Speaker 1:But That's a good one.
Speaker 2:I think people overlook that part of the book because it's the end of the story, and it's just the hobbits. But it's it's such an important part of the
Speaker 1:book. Yeah. They did good. Yeah. One to three books that changed your life.
Speaker 2:Bible, Lord of the Rings, How to Build a Story Brand. Alright.
Speaker 3:I'm really thankful that it'd be so different than the last one. I was hoping it would be very frivolous.
Speaker 2:Because without that book, I never would have learned how to build a a build a build a brand, and and that book is is perfect.
Speaker 1:What about movies? One to three movies?
Speaker 2:Can I see Lord of the Rings again?
Speaker 1:I mean,
Speaker 2:the trilogy is by far the greatest trilogy. Star Wars, obviously. Star Wars is is the original three. Right? There's no ones that matter.
Speaker 2:And Han shoots first. Damn right. And I would say it's tough. I'm gonna have to go with Sandlot just because Sandlot Nice. Because baseball is my favorite sport, and my dad grew up playing baseball like that, and I kinda got to to grow up like that a little bit.
Speaker 2:And I just think Sandlot encapsulates that that childhood summer better than any movie has ever captured that feeling, and I just think it's it's a classic film that'll always
Speaker 1:be Classic classic feel good movie.
Speaker 2:Always always be relevant, and you can always watch that movie with anybody, and it's a good movie. So that's nice. Kellen Me Small? Kellen Me Small. Yep.
Speaker 1:Alright. Anything you wanna add up before we wrap it?
Speaker 2:No. I'm just just stoked to be able to be on the podcast. Thanks for inviting me on. This is great.
Speaker 3:Thank you for sharing some of your story. I know we've done this through CarRise. We work together closely for many years. So, like, I I know the the punchline to a lot of these stories. Do you think that there's anything at ZeroEyes that, has affected you or changed you?
Speaker 3:Take answer the last step. Yep. Where have you taken this knowledge? And now we're working with other veterans and you lead basically a lot of the ops team.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You basically lead the ops team. Yep. What did you learn through those previous companies
Speaker 2:that you've applied here and what does that look like? Yeah. I'd say you gotta trust your people. Trusting your people is huge. You gotta trust people to to do the job.
Speaker 2:At Zero Eyes, we have so many amazing people who work here. So smart, so capable. Just just it's it's overwhelming, and and you have to trust people to do their job. Just communicate. Communication is so underrated.
Speaker 2:I know it's it's such a cliche thing to say, but a lot of people don't communicate enough. And you and communicating and over communicating is so important, not only to keep everyone on the same page, but to ensure that other people's ideas are voiced and that the whole pool of ideas can come together, and you can create the best thing from that. I I think those two things are the most important, in my opinion.
Speaker 3:I don't have anything else. Awesome.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate you having me on. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thanks, guys. Thank you. That's it for this episode. If you wanna check out more from the podcast, head to 0eyes.com/nobelle, where you can see show notes, read more about our guests, and suggest guests or topics of your own. Until next time, stay in the fight.
Speaker 1:Don't ring the bell.